Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If I shoot an infantry lascannon through another one of my infantry units at a Land Raider, does the Land Raider get a 4+ cover save?

This came up in a game tonight, and while I was under the impression that the LR should not get the save, I was unable to find any rule explicitly supporting my position. The vehicle clearly demands 50% cover to get a cover save, but this does not seem to overrule the "shooting through infantry" rule.



Also, while we're on the subject of vehicles getting cover saves:

Sourclams wrote:We can put the HWS inside of it and claim the benefits of an AV12 shell, and we can stack the Hydra behind it in the dreaded 'choo-choo' formation; because the gun on a Hydra is a rear mounted emplacement, another chimera in front of a chimera obscures 100% of its front armor facing. That's right, 3+ cover.

I've seen this mentioned before (with regards to the Griffon) but I'm not entirely sure how this works, as the rule for getting a 3+ save seems to only apply to when you're facing front but can only see a side, not when you're facing front but can only see a small part of the front. Can someone explain this one to me?

Thanks!

You are right about the train-formation. It hinges on the front armour not being visible at all.

If a bit of the front armour is visible, it would translate to a front armour shot with 4+ cover save.
If the front armour is completely obscured, it means side armour shot with 3+ cover save.

It isn't always a good idea, I believe.

There is no 'shoot through infantry' rule.

Shooting between models in the same unit puts opposing infantry in cover.

But vehicles are only considered in cover if they are physically obscured. Check in the vehicle section.

Correction:

Fully obscured front armor and turret become 3+ cover, however the armor facing is still determined by straightline gun-to-target; if a weapon that would normally shoot the front facing shoots at a fully obscured vehicle, hit/glance/pen is resolved against the front armor facing.

Normally a vehicle that is front obscured can't shoot back because turrets tend to be on the front armor facing; however the custom chimera gun mounts like Griffon, Colossus, and Hydra are rear-mounted turrets which is why their front armor can be 100% obscured and they can still shoot back.

coredump wrote:There is no 'shoot through infantry' rule.

Shooting between models in the same unit puts opposing infantry in cover.

But vehicles are only considered in cover if they are physically obscured. Check in the vehicle section.

See, that's the thing. The rules in the shooting section don't refer specifically to infantry. Their wording is more broad. The rules for shooting at vehicles mentions the 50% obscured thing, and explicitly states that it overrules as save from area terrain, but does not specifically state that it overrules the rule for shooting through your own units.

I don't have the rulebook on me right now so perhaps the wording is clearer than I remember. But my opponent and I read through both sections at a critical juncture in a recent game, and in the end I did not feel that I could deny him his cover save.

You are right about the train-formation. It hinges on the front armour not being visible at all.

If a bit of the front armour is visible, it would translate to a front armour shot with 4+ cover save.
If the front armour is completely obscured, it means side armour shot with 3+ cover save.

It isn't always a good idea, I believe.

wait, what is this train formation thing?

Example with Marines:

Landraider who's immediately followed by a rhino, followed by a rhino. The landraider covers the front armor of the rhino, and the first rhino covers the front armor of the second. Thus conferring a 3+ cover save to the vehicle.

gotcha so only the two rhinos benefit from this then.

and it really only works when the train is heading straight towards the enemy, anything to far to the sides and there's no cover save at all.

coredump wrote:There is no 'shoot through infantry' rule.

Shooting between models in the same unit puts opposing infantry in cover.

You may need to reword this statement. It appears wrong as currently written. See page 22 of the BRB. "...models can always shoot, and be shot at, through members of their own unit without conferring or receiving a cover save."

@Dave47
"If I shoot an infantry lascannon through another one of my infantry units at a Land Raider, does the Land Raider get a 4+ cover save?"

I would not give the LR a cover save unless 50% of it was blocked by an intervening infantry unit.

sourclams wrote:Correction:

Fully obscured front armor and turret become 3+ cover, however the armor facing is still determined by straightline gun-to-target; if a weapon that would normally shoot the front facing shoots at a fully obscured vehicle, hit/glance/pen is resolved against the front armor facing.

No, if the firing unit is in the front arc, but can only see the side armour, the hits are resolved against the side armour facing with a 3+ cover save.

sourclams wrote:Correction:

Fully obscured front armor and turret become 3+ cover, however the armor facing is still determined by straightline gun-to-target; if a weapon that would normally shoot the front facing shoots at a fully obscured vehicle, hit/glance/pen is resolved against the front armor facing.

That does not jive with what the rules say:

BRB page 62, first column last paragraph wrote: It may rarely happen that a firing unit cannot see any part of the facing they are in (front, side, or rear), but they can still see another facing of the target vehicle. In this case they may take the shot against the facing they can see, but to represent such an extremely angled shot, the vehicle receives a 3+ cover save.

Relevant bit bolded by me; incidactes the shot is taken against the actually visible armour value.

sourclams wrote:Normally a vehicle that is front obscured can't shoot back because turrets tend to be on the front armor facing; however the custom chimera gun mounts like Griffon, Colossus, and Hydra are rear-mounted turrets which is why their front armor can be 100% obscured and they can still shoot back.

Again I'm not following you here, if a vehicle's turret is visible its not fully obscured from that facing and shots fired at it will hit based on orientation just as if there were no cover at all. The only time you fire at any armour other then the facing you are in is in the scenerio outlined above.

Jack

JB: I worded it poorly. I was thinking of the intervening models being in the same unit of each other, not the same unit as the shooter.

Heh, Im not gonna touch this one. There are way too many quotes going in way too many directions! However, I use 5 Rhinos and 3 Baal Preds in my army. I consider myself an expert on vehicles getting cover saves, facing, and totally obscured LoS. I just cant make any sense of what the questions are here!

jawaballs wrote:Heh, Im not gonna touch this one. There are way too many quotes going in way too many directions! However, I use 5 Rhinos and 3 Baal Preds in my army. I consider myself an expert on vehicles getting cover saves, facing, and totally obscured LoS. I just cant make any sense of what the questions are here!

Then what are you doing?

Besides boosting your post count you didn't add anything at all to the discussion. Might as well have written "Me 2" or "+1". It would have made it easier to spot a useless post.

Welcome to Dakka BTW.

Steelmage99 wrote:

jawaballs wrote:Heh, Im not gonna touch this one. There are way too many quotes going in way too many directions! However, I use 5 Rhinos and 3 Baal Preds in my army. I consider myself an expert on vehicles getting cover saves, facing, and totally obscured LoS. I just cant make any sense of what the questions are here!

Then what are you doing?

Besides boosting your post count you didn't add anything at all to the discussion. Might as well have written "Me 2" or "+1". It would have made it easier to spot a useless post.

Welcome to Dakka BTW.

+1

A vehicle always need 50% concealment regardless of other factors. Now, if the unit firing a lascannon had a second unit right up in their grill, then they might have had 50% blocked from the models LoS