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Ok, I got ownzed at Adepticon, my Daemon list wasn't really to blame, but its got me looking at it critically.

Currently I've got:

Herald of Khorne w/rending, unholy strength, chariot
Herald of Khorne w/rending, unholy strength, chariot
Herald of Khorne w/rending, unholy strength, chariot, icon
Herald of Khorne w/rending, unholy strength, chariot, icon
4 Crushers
4 Crushers
4 Crushers
1 Grinder w/tongue
1 Grinder w/tongue
1 Grinder w/tongue
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters

That's not precise, it varies with the point level, but that's the basic gist. It's mostly done me well, but I'm wondering about the two Heralds in the second wave. I'm thinking of replacing one with the Masque, for the 3 pavanes on the round she falls. What say you, internet?

Uh, how about mix it up and use something other than just plain Khorne? You need more shooting than just three grinders, throw some Tzeentch in there or something.

I've been a long time proponent of the la masque for awhile now. The only reason it isn't in my pure tzentch daemon list is because it knocks my soft scores (people whining about it being the only non-tzeentch model).

I think she especially shines when used in conjunction with crushers and flamers.

I went back and read through your adepticon report, wasn't sure if I should put comments there or here but I'll stick them in here.

Mech'dar will always give you a problem, you basically have to hope for objective missions so they have to get close to you at some point.

That nid list was definitely built for killing hordes. Ouch. Like you said about the only difference you could have tried for was to put the crusher's behind the grinders, but i don't know how much that would have helped.

Are you still wanting to stick to the pure khorne theme, seeing you talk about the mask seems you might be willing to branch out a bit.

If not, I think you might need to try using some flesh hounds. They will help to either lock things down, provide cover for your crushers, or chase down faster moving things. str5 with an 18inch charge might just help to pull down some skimmers or vehicles that are giving you fits that your list currently can't get to. Putting them on rounds or even bike bases or even the old cav bases means they provide some effective unit blocking abilities for other units to hit so you can counter assault.

If you are looking to include some other non-khorne units, i think you should combine one of your crusher units (to an 8 man) and sneak in a unit of flamers along with the masque.

I am not a fan of the all-khorne list, after playing it a few times. It's fluffy, but it's not good.

Bloodletters need to be bloodletting. In my opinion, if you're running fairly assault-heavy in your non-troop slots, you have, at most, one troop slot to dedicate to a purely-assault oriented troop selection (Daemonettes, or Bloodletters).

The assaulty elites in the daemon list are just too good, that the slower, more vulnerable assault troops can't get there in time, and, what's more, too often they'll be needed to sit somewhere and hold something, and in those cases, they add nothing to your battle.

I've slowly moved towards a 1x Big plaguebearer unit, and run the rest of my troops as horrors, because if i'm taking a small unit of daemons with the expectation that they'll hold an objective, giving them the ability to shoot stuff (and, with a bolt of tzeentch as well) means they're impacting the game even if they're just sitting around.


But, I guess this isn't what you asked. I don't think that trading a chariot for the masque is going to win you games that you wouldn't have won anyway, and I don't think it will lose you games you wouldn't have lost anyway. I think the weakness in your list isn't the lack of a few d6 inches.

If you're going to give up the all-khorne approach, the place to do it is in your troop selection.

Another option is to drop all the chariots for 2 bloodthirsters. That will give you alot more mobility and punch, and make your units 8.

I am curious why you field your heralds on chariots instead of juggernaughts. You can't attach them to other units when you DS which I like to do often. I guess you present so many targets that shooty opponents tend not focus fire upon them.

Here is my pure Khorne list for comparison:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might & BotBG
Skulltaker/juggernaught

6x Bloodcrusher/Icon, Fury, Instrument
5x Bloodcrusher/Icon, Fury, Instrument

Soul Grinder/Tongue & Phlegm
Soul Grinder/Tongue & Phlegm

12x Bloodletter
12x Bloodletter
12x Bloodletter

The Bloodletters can hide behind the Grinders in objective based missions or kill point based missions as well if need be. If necessary they can go to ground in cover for the 3+ cover save. Against other assault oriented armies they can destroy just about anything out there, moreso if they charge.

The greater daemon is my personal insurance policy for the Crushers if I am up against walkers. Otherwise it can often operate solo and is a true scary monster.

The Skulltaker and Crushers can soak up a lot of damage and dish it out in return plus some. They are the game winners.

The Grinders are my only ranged shooting. I need them to help balance the list plus they are also scary monsters in close combat.

G

Redbeard wrote:I am not a fan of the all-khorne list, after playing it a few times. It's fluffy, but it's not good.

I agree, ever since you suggested PBs and Horrors I have fiddled with lists and mulled it over, and the only thing keeping all khorne from being good are the troops. Not that BLs are bad, but you are paying for power weapons, but arent using them if they are just holding objectives. I have since dropped all BLs.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
I am curious why you field your heralds on chariots instead of juggernaughts. You can't attach them to other units when you DS which I like to do often.

Chariots are better. A herald on a juggernaut is only very marginally superior to a bloodcrusher, for a lot more points. I mean, what do you get?
A point of WS 6 to 5 is largely irrelevant. One extra wound, one extra attack, +1I. Yippee, all that for only 65 points more...

Compare that to a chariot - where you get two extra wounds (again, compared to a normal bloodcrusher), as well as the extra attack, for only 45 points more than the crusher. So what if you're not an IC - the only reason to put a herald on a juggernaut is if you find that 8 bloodcrushers just aren't doing enough for you. If you're taking less than 8, you're almost always better off buying more crushers than you are buying heralds on juggers.

But then, I think you're also better off fielding more crushers than chariots too. I don't think the cost of the khorne herald, compared to a stock crusher, is worth it unless you're already maxxed on crushers, or you're doing something else (like, getting conversions into your army to boost your softscores...) Though, running the heralds separately does give your opponent more potential targets.

Still, running the numbers, what would you rather have for your 100 points?
Herald on Juggernaut (4 attacks, 3 wounds, WS6, S5, I5)
Herald on Chariot, w/ Unholy Might (4 attacks, 4 wounds, WS6, S6, I5)
2 Crushers + Icon (6 attacks, 4 wounds (allocatable due to icon), WS5, S5, I4)

I can't help but think that the 2 crushers are the better spend.

I also like the bloodthirster though, I think he fills a hole. He's a target, but he's fairly resilient, and you need something to handle enemy walkers that will just stall your crushers all game, as well as having a nice mobile unit. Soul Grinders can't stall dreads well enough because the dread gets to swing first.

Heralds:
If you haven't tried the Heralds on chariots, I urge you to do so, if you have, then we must just have different experiences. Here's what's so great about them in my book.

#1: They are seperate squads. This is the biggy. You can only have bloodcrushers in 3 places, but you can have Heralds in an additional 4.

#2: They can eat infantry that they charge. They can pop tanks. They can lock dreads in place. They swing at i5, and can hence attrit furious charge troops as they die.

It all pales before being separate squads. That's the biggy. It's what gives Khorne a chance vs. Orks or other assault armies.

They are the oil that makes the crusher/grinder engine work.

Flesh Hounds: Nah, I took those guys out, and they are staying out. They are great vs. skimmer lists, but those are so rare that I can't count on seeing them. Though, they'd be great vs. Guard, and if the guard roll big time I might try rotating some in for bloodletter squads.


Troops:
I should probably use plaguebearers. Its rare that my guys do anything other than stand around.

You make good points I may have to try 4 chariots in a list sometime. Demons are different in that I find myself trying to cram so much good stuff into the list.

Im planning on using fateweaver and a bloodthirster or masque (depends on points) along with 15 crushers. Is that too many points in HQ? Is there a point where the army is fine as it is and fateweaver+ is too expensive, or is the reroll and boon/bolt always worth it.

Or is that another reason you take 4 chariots, to maximize room in the rest of the list but still take a solid HQ?

40kenthusiast wrote:Heralds:

Flesh Hounds: Nah, I took those guys out, and they are staying out. They are great vs. skimmer lists, but those are so rare that I can't count on seeing them. Though, they'd be great vs. Guard, and if the guard roll big time I might try rotating some in for bloodletter squads.

I'll try a few ideas here to try and convince you I would probably have agreed with you last year but I've slowly been changing my mind about them. They really aren't that effective against marines, and honestly not much better against orks, they just don't dish out enough damage unless you are taking a huge squad of them. I like them against nids, it's mutual annihilation with hormogaunts (depending on who gets the charge) and they eat baby gaunts for breakfast, they can even do some damage against a dakka fex or at least tie it down. Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar they seem to be very good for the points.

THe problem stems from the fact that you don't see a lot of the armies they are good at. Me personally one of my best friends plays mech eldar, and the majority of competative lists are all mech in my area of the woods thiese days, so you either need speed or range (which is why I've been having so much success with tzeentch daemons I think). Hounds are great at hunting down and popping transports and light tanks, and will even do a number on bog standard russes.

But what about the armies they don't do so well against, namely marines and orks. Against the marines you really are using them as rhino/razorback killers or you send them after dev squads or scouts.

The interesting one is against orks. Playing against a lot of horde armies, and even some nob biker armies, when grinders get the charge they usually win. So it's about guaranteeing the grinders a charge, placing the flesh hound bases sideways (since they are cav) it creates an extremly large wall for very little points. This can force a 30 man ork horde to hit the hound wall, which they will then vape, leaving them open to counter assault, the same goes for nob bikers.

All for the low low cost of 15 points for model.

Alright thats my spiel

Barring that switch out bloodletters for plague bearers, drop one herald for the mask, drop one crusher unit for 4 flamers, and then beef up and wound allocate out the other two squads of crushers

My 2 cents for what its worth:

The Masque with flamers is so brutal.

She also helps out your assault units and Grinders by pulling enemy units towards you and clumping them up for pie plates.

Better luck next year.

Flesh Hounds often bounce. Khorne gives you access to an entire army that ignores armor saves... Use it.

I would rather use Bloodletters over PBs for theme.

G

For the love of god dont use Masque in any serious attempts of competative gaming.

The biggest problem with that list is the huge number of small units, thats a source of many of your problems. try to have bigger units, at least if you want to get them into CC.