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So i've been looking long and hard at Penal legionaries, and while I personally love them I can't help but think they aren't that useful in a competitive setting.
At 80 points they cost as much as a unit of vets with a meltagun. They have no upgrades and characters that join them do not benefit from the scout USR.
The random chance of "crimes committed" severely hinders them, granted not as bad as possessed but still enough to question bringing them into battle in a tourney. The best synergy they can possibly get is rolling a 5 - 6 for their crime and having either stracken or creed out there to give them furious charge. In that specific case I can see some real potential, but I just don't feel right relying on a 33% chance to have them be effective. I LOVE the flff around them and for my friendly games I'll gladly run a theme based army of repentant legionnaires outflanking for fun. But on that same token it seems to me that just mobbing up regular infantry groups with attached commissars/priest not only covers the same role the legionnaires have but is also more versatile harder to break, has more options for special weapons and the like but is also pretty much the same price. And you can outflank with them with creed/Rahiem. I don't mean to sound down on the unit but I was wondering if anyone has thought of a good way to utilize them competitive games.

Thanks

They're just not up to competitive standards :(

However, they are by no means too bad for causal games!

I plan on converting up one or two squads of them.

yeah thats how I feel to oh well. As for converting a few squads for friendly games I'm there with ya!

I thought that one of their rolls gave them assault 2 lasguns? Don't lasguns have a range of 24 inches. That would make them assult 2 24" right? That has to be good for something.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:I thought that one of their rolls gave them assault 2 lasguns? Don't lasguns have a range of 24 inches. That would make them assult 2 24" right? That has to be good for something.

"Ultimately, an army with two wounds has a lot going for it!"

When you paint a squad of Delaque gangers to look like Vin Diesel from Pitch Black it will win you painting competitions.

Dave47 wrote:

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:I thought that one of their rolls gave them assault 2 lasguns? Don't lasguns have a range of 24 inches. That would make them assult 2 24" right? That has to be good for something.

"Ultimately, an army with two wounds has a lot going for it!"

Dude - that quote's got to be nearly 10 years old now, isn't it? When did the folks at GW first say it?

Let's be clear. Any IG troop choice that can't take a chimera is noncompetitive.

40kenthusiast wrote:Let's be clear. Any IG troop choice that can't take a chimera is noncompetitive.

QFT

Yeah, unpredictable, uncompetitive.

I'm still building an army of them....

running a Penal legion would be quite fluffy....

but even better is telling your opponent that you just rammed your giant, throbbing penal legion in their EAR!




And making them slaanehi traitor guard, just for effect.

My former WHFB beastmen army is going to get converted into a penal-legionnaire-heavy force sometime soon. While not competitive, with a few Ogryns (converted minotaur-types) they should look pretty cool.

Back on-topic: what other choices, fielded alongside penal troopers, will make a decent/playable list?

Ironhand Stracken or a priest could make their melee a bit more painful. Other more mobile/numerous troops (mechanised infantry with comissars maybe) to distract and cooperative charge stuff.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Dude - that quote's got to be nearly 10 years old now, isn't it? When did the folks at GW first say it?

More like 7-8 years old, if I recall. The complaint about Thousand Sons, though, does date back almost a full decade. I used to post occasionally on Dakka from the EZBoard days up until about 5 years ago when I took a long break from the hobby. Someone (Abadondabadon?) played T-Sons, and liked to complain the quote up at every opportunity, so it kind of sunk in.

It's actually a great summation of a GW rules writing blind-spot that still exists (to a lesser extent) and helps to explain the problems with Penal Legionaires. I thought it was appropriate after seeing Dumplingman's quote that "Assault 2 has to be good for something, right?"

Ok, I said that Assault 2, 24" has to be good for something. It wasn't meant as a joke, but since I don't actually play guard, maybe i just don't get it.

Anyways, isn't the squad only 80 points? How many models does that give, I believe that they are still BS3 WS3. But i may be wrong about all of this as I only briefly paged through the codex.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:Ok, I said that Assault 2, 24" has to be good for something. It wasn't meant as a joke, but since I don't actually play guard, maybe i just don't get it.

Anyways, isn't the squad only 80 points? How many models does that give, I believe that they are still BS3 WS3. But i may be wrong about all of this as I only briefly paged through the codex.

It's also S3 Ap-. 18 lasgun shots isn't much to write home about. "Only" 80 points compares poorly with the 70 point veterans with better BS and weapons options and 50 point infantry squads. These are all ten man squads.

Savnock wrote:My former WHFB beastmen army is going to get converted into a penal-legionnaire-heavy force sometime soon. While not competitive, with a few Ogryns (converted minotaur-types) they should look pretty cool.

Back on-topic: what other choices, fielded alongside penal troopers, will make a decent/playable list?

I think if you are making a massive infantry-based horde army you could most certainly find room for a couple of Penal Legion units to round out your six Troops choices. If only they could have taken special weapons, they could have been a fun substitute to Veterans. . .

yakface wrote:

Savnock wrote:My former WHFB beastmen army is going to get converted into a penal-legionnaire-heavy force sometime soon. While not competitive, with a few Ogryns (converted minotaur-types) they should look pretty cool.

Back on-topic: what other choices, fielded alongside penal troopers, will make a decent/playable list?

I think if you are making a massive infantry-based horde army you could most certainly find room for a couple of Penal Legion units to round out your six Troops choices. If only they could have taken special weapons, they could have been a fun substitute to Veterans. . .

I keep looking at their entry hoping that I just missed the part of their equipment list labeled "Frag Grenades" and "Krak Grenades". Not that these would make them great, but I can find a use for an 80 point Stubborn Scouting squad with Krak grenades and the chance of getting a not sucky close-combat attack. I have a lot of trouble with paying 10 points to get Scouts and Stubborn, but give up BS4, grenades, weapon options, Chimera access.

If you took 3+ of these guys, you'd start getting better distributed results on their random abilities, so maybe at that point you could really figure out a way to use them "reliably". 6 Takes up only 480 points, and you're approaching predictable results at that point.


HQ:
Command Squad, Regimental Banner, Astropath, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera: 180

Elites:
6 Ogryns w/Chimera: 305
6 Ogryns w/Chimera: 305
6 Ogryns w/Chimera: 305

Troops:
Penal Legion Squad: 80
Penal Legion Squad: 80
Penal Legion Squad: 80
Penal Legion Squad: 80
Penal Legion Squad: 80
Penal Legion Squad: 80

Total: 1575

How bad is this army? I think it's pretty bad. It might be a lot of fun with 6 scouting/outflanking squads. Could be a real problem for a gunline army. The Penal Legion troopers won't allow you to shoot them very often, and Ogryns can absorb an absurd amount of fire.

I used 2 penal legion squads in all my games today and I was very impressed with them. I got a 3 or 4 in every game for thier abilitys and can say outflank +astro + fleet + furious charge will really screw up any shooting squad or vehicle sitting near a table side. Played against necron, tau, marine, nid and got atleast double thier points in every game and probly best was taking 3 firewarrior squads and a broadside team in 3 turns.

I got together with a friend who is also on the Guard band wagon and in the process of building a new army and played a couple of team games using the new codex over the weekend. One of the units we fielded was by old Imperial Guard beastmen attack squad as "counts as" penal legionarii. We were suprised at how well they performed.

The first game was against a Space marine army. In this case they managed to beat a marine tactical squad they came in on the flank of. However it was the second game against another IG army that they really shined. We put a priest with an eviserator with them and before the game was over they had wiped out two guard squads, a mortar squad, and part of a platoon command squad. Granted, they got lucky in both cases, I rolled up the rending special rule, and they managed to hit fairly soft targets, but it was impressive and now I'm a believer.

80 points (well, 145 with the priest) well spent.

Oh yes...and those Ogryns everyone is arguing over worked well too....

TR

I am personally a big fan of the penal legionnaires. I think one squad is enough though.

G

If we're specifically talkiong about competitive uses then I think I only really see a solid use for them in doubles lists. Specifically in lists where the non-guard half is assault heavy. At that point the combo of rending (or the psychopaths) could be a nice assisting unit. Even then we're probably just talking about a unit or two at most.

I don't think it's a totally naff unit, not as a front line assault unit, but as a sneaky flanking unit. An outflanking Troops choice is simply worth a few points, as it allows more chances to threaten flanks, grab objectives, etc. Stubborn is also useful, particularly on the flanks, where you genuinely want to hold up an enemy flanker. I'm leery about the Commissar lord, because when the enemy hits the middle of my lines, I want my boys to break at the end of his assault phase so I can light him up with shooting. When fighting a scout squad or some bikers, It'll be nice to have some stubborn guys holding out for a few turns.

In addition, all three rolls are useful, and being able to know before deployment what they have makes it easier to utilize their abilities:

Gunslingers: deploy forward, scout up, and hackle an enemy unit all game at 24" range. Sure, they can either shoot at it or assault it, but either way they're spending resources dealing with an 80pt unit. Against Orks, Nids, enemy guard, and even demons it's not a bad weapon.

The psychopaths are probably best kept as a mobile reserve, as bargain basement rough riders, or used to outflank. Probably the least useful in terms of combat effectiveness, but fleet makes them slightly more mobile.

The Knife fighters is pretty clearly the money shot, and rewards you with dirt cheap genestealer wannabes.

Looking at the IG list, the basic price for a cheap skirmish line squad is 65pts (IG squad with heavy bolter and flamer). For 15pts more, I can get scout, stubborn, and at worst fleet, furious charge, and counter attack. Like most things in the IG book that aren't basic squads, Vets, Russes, or Valks, Penal Legion are easy to dismiss, but I don't' think they'll hurt a competitive list.

Remember, you can order them with Move!Move!Move!, so the charge range on psychopaths becomes pretty huge. They would be a decent CC cleanup unit. 30 S4 Initiative 4 attacks with a close to 18" charge range starts looking a little like a Space Marine Assault Squad. As a Troops Choice. For 80 points.

I thought that Move just made the run roll more reliable... does it give them fleet too?

Or is it psychopaths that gives them fleet?

Psychopaths gives them fleet.

Biophysic wrote:Remember, you can order them with Move!Move!Move!, so the charge range on psychopaths becomes pretty huge. They would be a decent CC cleanup unit. 30 S4 Initiative 4 attacks with a close to 18" charge range starts looking a little like a Space Marine Assault Squad. As a Troops Choice. For 80 points.

do Psycopaths gain a CCW? I thought they were still one attack base. But yes, coupled with stubborn it's not a bad unit at all.

If only you could just choose, or if the squad was 50 points and you could buy one as an upgrade.

rolling to see if a unit can fullfill it's place in your army is really annoying.

Polonius wrote:

Biophysic wrote:Remember, you can order them with Move!Move!Move!, so the charge range on psychopaths becomes pretty huge. They would be a decent CC cleanup unit. 30 S4 Initiative 4 attacks with a close to 18" charge range starts looking a little like a Space Marine Assault Squad. As a Troops Choice. For 80 points.

do Psycopaths gain a CCW? I thought they were still one attack base. But yes, coupled with stubborn it's not a bad unit at all.

I thought it did, but I could be mistaken. I'm at work with no book for the time being.

Sushicaddy wrote:If only you could just choose, or if the squad was 50 points and you could buy one as an upgrade.

rolling to see if a unit can fullfill it's place in your army is really annoying.

Well, I think that's one way to look at it. the other way is to look at penal squads as cheap scouting units that can hold a flank for a turn and can harrass the enemy, either through shooting, extra mobility, or close combat. I look at them more as a unit with a fairly narrow mission profile that can be met in different ways based on what abilities they roll up.