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Has anyone noticed that the use of Drop Pods in today's tournament environment is a complete waste of point’s allocation? With the adage of KP's to the scene, Drop Pods have become a completely pointless in my opinion. I am a long time SW player and have used Drop Pods in numerous games. I think that game play wise, they are extremely useful. They allow an army great versatility, and speed. Plus with the added rules in the new SM codex (half can come in on first turn and new weapons) are great bonuses to the game play.

However, Kill Points makes them completely useless and acts as a trump card to any benefit they may have had. With Kill Points being very prevalent on the tournament scene, I know only have to score a weapon destroyed, or immobilized result to get the kill point for them (the only have one weapon, and are immobilized when they enter play). This increases my odds to 1/3 of the time getting it. Why would I waste my time shooting at your Land Raider hoping to score the crucial hit, when I can just take easy shots at your Drop Pods and get the points that way?

GW, of course, decided to draw your attention away from the fact that these things are easy points for your opponent, by releasing new, very cool, models for them. WHO CARES!!! I can just as easily shoot your Gatorade can (that's what I used) as I can shoot your new, shiny Drop Pod.

Which brings me to the last and final point…Kill Points is a horrible game mechanic. With 4th Ed. you had to make a strategic decision, do I put a bunch of points into one unit? If I do and the unit is destroyed, my opponent will get a lot of victory points for them, however, this was balanced out by the fact that these units were generally hard to kill. But the new Kill Point rules, I will just choose to leave them alone while I focus on your weaker, squishier, units. After all, it all scores the same.

For those of you who are paying attention…this is not the way a war is generally fought! True, I could focus my attention on a force in your army that might have better fire power, but why do that when I can just shoot at some light armor transports, or a unit of Gretchen. As long as I have few easy to get kill points then you do, I will win every time. No strategy, just simple street smarts.

Christ, it's not all kill points..

They are no more useless than Rhinos.

Plus, they aren't that easy to kill.

I still use them, for whatever that is worth. I used them all 4th ed and had fun and a lot of success, they are better now, IMO. However, as always, YMMV.

Yes, please shot the Drop Pods.
Not the other similarly Armor Valued Dreads that are coming out of them.

It's really not that bad, unless your dropping multiple combat squads.
and if its a kill point mission, you'll most likely not be splitting them.

Once I get a Carnifex in CC with it, EVERYTHING is an easy kill. Doesn't mean things aren't useless.

I agree with the OP, they are almost complete junk. (A novelty as a cool model and concept, really not suitable for tourney play).

Reecius wrote:They are no more useless than Rhinos.
Plus, they aren't that easy to kill.

What? Yes they are easier to kill, they start immobilized, Open topped, automaticly hit in CC the OP said it all basicly. 50 points = 1KP or 255-1KP is messed up.

Also: No tank shock, can shoot through them, so bad LOS blocking, can't be used as mobile hills, no smoke launcher, no light, 1 gun only rhino= WAY BETTER

In concept drop pods are disposable transports once they are down, why are they worth any KPs?

natedawgg wrote:Has anyone noticed that the use of Drop Pods in today's tournament environment is a complete waste of point’s allocation?

Yup, I find that having your army come in on turn 1, 50%, then half of whats left, on T2 then some of that on T3 etc, is a great way to come in piece meal and get defeated in detail. The rules really encourage the use of just 1 pod for the turn one surprise and it's contents are easily spilled if it is used as a shock unit. 1 POD != drop pod assault...

BrookM wrote:it's not all kill points

True, just a really important 1/3rd of the time, then they are dead weight, they practicly scream come assault me for a free KP! In a tourney that looses you a game almost for sure.

I actually beat a Drop Marine List with Mech Eldar in the Adepticon Championship game 1 (a KP mission). He had 5 pods with dreads in them, Yriel and Eldrad just walked around killing them with auto spear hits and I got 5 KP for it. Once the dreads were dead too he couldn't really catch up in a game that was a bit off, he managed to kill about a tank a dread, he would have beat me if the pods were not worth 5 KP, it felt... slanted.

P.S. BrookM, Caesar thinks highly of your Avatar, very nice.

*SPLEDIT

Augustus wrote:
Yup, I find that having your army come in on turn 1, 50%, then half of whats left, on T2 then some of that on T3 etc, is a great way to come in piece meal and get defeated in detail.

Hrm, I could see how this might be an issue, if it wasn't for the fact that daemons do pretty well... Although, I supose you could argue that daemon units are generally stronger, to compensate for the army having to do this, while marines aren't stronger because they might not use drop pods...

And yet, comparing the contents of drop pod to a daemon unit really doesn't back that up either. The marines are free to drop right on top of their opponents, with no fear of losing the pod, while the daemons have to back up. Marine squads equipped for podding can put out an awful lot of damage on the turn they arrive, while most daemon units take a run move on their arrival, and the marines have better saves against most weapons (unless you're facing an entire plasma gunline, of course). And the marines also don't have the problem of getting the 'wrong half' on a die roll either.

It doesn't matter how many KP you give up if you slaughter your opponent.

Marines in pods, turn 1 landings, should (IMO) include at least one sternguard squad (rapid-firing bolters that always wound on 2+, or dropping combi-melta shots on stuff), preferably with Kantor (for better counter-assault, and to make them scoring), and at least one iron-clad dreadnought, who is able to hit with a couple of heavy flamers when he drops.

A 1750 list can run 2 ironclads, 1 sternguard w/ kantor, 3 tacs and 1 assault squad (in pod, no packs), for a turn-1 drop of 4 pods (2 ironclads w/ flamers, 1 assault w/ flamers & sternguard). All up-close and personal. This isn't viable? 2 flamers, 4 heavy flamers, and 20 bolters or 6-7 meltas, right in your opponent's face? With the pods able to shield you from other parts of your opponent's army?

I dunno, the ability to always get the alpha strike, and a pretty significant one at that, is worth the trade off of a handful of not-so-easy kill points, in my opinion. Cause really, who is shooting their anti-tank at a pod when there's an ironclad staring them in the face?

Redbeard wrote:Marines in pods, turn 1 landings, should (IMO) include at least one sternguard squad (rapid-firing bolters that always wound on 2+, or dropping combi-melta shots on stuff), preferably with Kantor (for better counter-assault, and to make them scoring), and at least one iron-clad dreadnought, who is able to hit with a couple of heavy flamers when he drops.

Well, I actually built those units and tried it out, it was pretty cool, but Kantor, and 2 units of SG in Pods is like 1/3rd of an army, it is SO top heavy. Also Kantor is such a limp wrist in Melee. I have never seen him survive a game. I always loose those units to melee eventually in practice...

Redbeard wrote:A 1750 list can run 2 ironclads, 1 sternguard w/ kantor, 3 tacs and 1 assault squad (in pod, no packs), for a turn-1 drop of 4 pods (2 ironclads w/ flamers, 1 assault w/ flamers & sternguard). All up-close and personal. This isn't viable? 2 flamers, 4 heavy flamers, and 20 bolters or 6-7 meltas, right in your opponent's face? With the pods able to shield you from other parts of your opponent's army?

Pods don't really shield, you can shoot through them, not really an advantage, it tends to look better on paper... Also dreads, I just see them eat meltaguns at that range or get beaten in HtH versus MCs...

Redbeard wrote:I dunno, the ability to always get the alpha strike, and a pretty significant one at that, is worth the trade off of a handful of not-so-easy kill points, in my opinion.

Ahh but you don't always get Alpha strike, Dawn of war ruins this whole army when you are forced to go first against... NOTHING, and then you are at a disadvantage with the KP in the next mission, cool idea but not a tournament winner.

Redbeard wrote:Cause really, who is shooting their anti-tank at a pod when there's an ironclad staring them in the face?

You don't, you kill the pods with melee, they almost always deliver units and land in melee range, theres a load of units that are great at this, anyone with a S8 glove, any MCs, anyone with a meltabomb, or a singing spear, or rending. They are just afterthought meat.

In addition to all that, they tend to give cover saves when used in mass for other long range marine fire coming in. I know I hid behind the hulks a lot in my game, and with fortune, it really worked for me.

I no longer use drop pods because I find rhinos to be of better value but as redbeard has pointed out a well designed drop list can do quite well against certain armies. Remember that if you take a full squad of Sternguard they can split into combat squads the turn they arrive via drop pod... So you could have five with combi meltas and another five with 3x combi flamer plus 2x heavy flamer. If they come in right you could both roast infantry and destroy a tank. I have a good friend who has been playing drop pod SW for several years now and he does very well. So while I no longer use them I still see their inherent merit. The drop pod assault rule can certainly be used to your advantage as well and helps to prevent your entire army from arriving in the dreaded piecemeal fashion.

The main problem I see with drop pod armies is versus horde armies... If you drop in close to the enemy lines your Marines will be overrun and if you drop away then you could still scatter in or if you do come in with a safe margin of distance it kind of defeats the purpose of using drop pods. Against other armies that aren't horde the drop pods can work some magic for you. So while you might be able to come up with a drop pod list that can handle hordes I don't think it will be that easy.

G

i hate pods (razors FTW)
ok, they give away a KP in theory, but not straight away.
i tend to worry more about whats comming out of a pod than the thing its self.
usually it will be sterns or irons wandering out of them, i rather shoot them to death 1st and kill the pod if theres nothing better to shoot.

I love my drop pods. Plus I have only had 1 drop pod taken out in about 10 games. I use mine as a terror tactic, so my opponent is more worried about what came out of the drop pod then the actually drop pod.

I don't personally use drop pods, but how can you say they serve no purpose??? They are advantageous to a certain strategies.

It is a perfectly valid strategy to use drop pods to house all of your troop units. Use your elites, heavy support, and fast attackers to weaken enemy positions around objectives, and drop those suckers on them FTW. In a lot of the games I have played, drop pods stand a better chance of actually making it to the objective with their cargo intact than rhinos or razors. People know to shoot for the rhinos or razors, meaning my troops usually have to slog it the last 12-18" to the objective, which means they don't have real good chances of taking it.

Besides, with planetstrike coming out soon, you will probably see drop pods updated with nifty stuff.

Augustus wrote:
Ahh but you don't always get Alpha strike, Dawn of war ruins this whole army when you are forced to go first against... NOTHING, and then you are at a disadvantage with the KP in the next mission, cool idea but not a tournament winner.

Well, that can happen to anyone. You don't always get to go when it's most advantageous for you. And I guess any opponent - other than daemons-, in Dawn of War or not, can hold their entire army in reserve and have you drop against nothing. Perhaps this is actually the biggest weakness that Pods face - it's a somewhat gimmicky army, and people have figured out how to beat the gimmick. But I don't think that means that the army is useless or dead, only that the podder has to evolve counter-tactics to deal with opponents who know not to deploy against them.

I think there's a lot of people bashing kill points in general right now, but the fact of the matter is that they're a part of the current Rules of Engagement. Kill points are arguably far from being fair or balanced, but I think it's a lesser of evils. (Killing the 16th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-15 gave nothing... Do you REALLY want to go back to that?). Regardless of liking kill points or not, they are a clear cut way of stating who won the battle without having to sit down and do the math, which simplifies things and speeds up tournament play (which I greatly appreciate). Most importantly, they are a part of the current rules, and in the case that your game involves them, it is your place to carry out your "orders" and win that battle with the forces you have at hand.

From a fluff perspective, even if the Drop Pod is "disposable", I'm sure that the friendly local Techmarine would be more than happy to re-use the Drop Pod if possible, as in order to drop in that fast and that hard without harming the contents, there's some considerable tech inside. So you're free to use it, but don't expect your superiors to be happy about you letting the other guys blow it up. And if the enemy can claim any sort of victory from blowing it up (who is to say what will raise their morale?), perhaps you might think twice about how you use it.

From a gaming point of view, nobody is forcing you to use it, and just like everything else, there's a time and a place for using Drop Pods. As an Ork player, I feel pretty ridiculous about running a Kult of Speed list and giving up kill points for my Trukks. But despite the fact that it is an easy kill point, it's part of my battle plan. I had rather my Trukk give up a kill point to get my Nobz that much closer to hitting your lines (Ramshackle For the Win, but that's another post...). I could run those same Nobz across the field on foot, but I chose to pay the points for the Trukk, and hand over the extra potential kill point. If you want your Dreadnought running across the field on foot, more power to you. But as a marine player, I want my Dreadnought in your lines immediately, and the value of disrupting your advance and putting my Dreadnought where I want it immediately is well worth the extra kill point the Drop Pod would provide.

That's why I'm assembling more drop pods tonight.

(Killing the 16th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-15 gave nothing... Do you REALLY want to go back to that?)

...killing the 30th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-29 gave nothing is somehow better?

Why do pods need to be all or nothing? Why can't an army have only 1 or 3 pods and the rest of it starts on the table. I think the new IG list will give Sternguard Pods a real kick in the pants. How valuable is it to drop 5-6 combimeltas in the face of a squadron on turn 1 and shoot. Guard can't be everywhere and a lot of the better Guard players are gravitating towards fewer guys and more tanks.

Kantor is great, but if your worried about him dieing to early, then keep him out of a pod and in the main body of the force. A Librarian should be with the Sternguard who podded because he can Gate them to new targets/out of trouble.

I envision a good pod army to have 1-3 pods and Pedro coming up in a LR Crusader with 7 Assault Terminators. If the enemy is relying on Vet's with Meltas in a Chimera, then the Pods can take them out and the Crusader runs free. If the enemy is relying on Medusa's to take out armor, then the pods can disable them right away and the crusader runs free.

I agree that an all podding army might be more difficult to play, but adding in a few pods to an exsisting army is still a pretty good tactic.

Danny Internets wrote:
...killing the 30th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-29 gave nothing is somehow better?

Well, yes, actually, it is better. It simplifies the accounting side of the game so that you don't have to remember (or ask time and time again) if that was the squad that started with 20 boyz and the 10th is worth victory 85 points or if it was the 30 boy squad that the 15th is worth 115 victory points. The entire squad is worth 1 kill point. Less math and memory, more dice and tactics. But that's not what this thread is about. I apologize for the temporary hijacking.

Well, I agree the drop pod isn't all that great, but not because of the free kill point. It's because of IG about to become the flavor of the month, and being able to include the inquisitor and mystics. Your drop pod lands, your sternguard comes out, and some mystic assigns a nearby unit, like oh, say, a squadron of Leman Russ tanks loaded down with plasma cannons, to shoot at them. How many S7 AP2 small blast templates is it going to take? And then you aren't shooting back... Rinse repeat for everything you drop in.

I'm just happy that the imperium gets a taste of their own medicine. Perhaps if there's enough of an outcry over it, GW will update the inquisition codex so that they stop pimping out their inquisitors to every last militia and survivalist group that comes along and pays lip service to the emperor.

Malecus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:
...killing the 30th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-29 gave nothing is somehow better?

Well, yes, actually, it is better. It simplifies the accounting side of the game so that you don't have to remember (or ask time and time again) if that was the squad that started with 20 boyz and the 10th is worth victory 85 points or if it was the 30 boy squad that the 15th is worth 115 victory points. The entire squad is worth 1 kill point. Less math and memory, more dice and tactics. But that's not what this thread is about. I apologize for the temporary hijacking.

You're really trying to justify kill points on the grounds that basic counting and arithmetic are too taxing? Really?

@ dancingcricket - Because inquisitors shouldn't be in an imperial list - marines, or guard either?

As for the value of a Drop pod, its like Leaping or Winged for Tyranids: dependent on your strategy.

Danny Internets wrote:

Malecus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:
...killing the 30th member of a 30 Ork squad giving points towards winning the game when member #1-29 gave nothing is somehow better?

Well, yes, actually, it is better. It simplifies the accounting side of the game so that you don't have to remember (or ask time and time again) if that was the squad that started with 20 boyz and the 10th is worth victory 85 points or if it was the 30 boy squad that the 15th is worth 115 victory points. The entire squad is worth 1 kill point. Less math and memory, more dice and tactics. But that's not what this thread is about. I apologize for the temporary hijacking.

You're really trying to justify kill points on the grounds that basic counting and arithmetic are too taxing? Really?

I think he is, and its the direction GW has been taking the game since 2nd edition. Killpoints takes all of a few seconds to see who is winning or losing, victory points takes much longer, and usually involves someone pulling out a calculator.

Ah a kill points discussion...

Bottom line. Kill points work, if you haven't been able to adapt your play style and army construction style to the mission its not the game mechanics fault.

Kill points are perfect counterbalance to the fact that 66% of all missions are a straight up objective claiming game. Without kill points, 5th edition would be every single player maxing out his/her force org chart, bringing 17 units with as many dedicated transports as they could afford. Games would drag out as movement phases and shooting phases would take longer.

Make sure you attempt to land every drop pod on an objective. Each one that lands on an objective now blocks that objective, and now must be killed in order for the objective to be claimed.

When you land, make sure you focus all of your shooting on your enemies tank killing units. If all he has left is bolters and anti-infantry heavy weapons, then that armor 12 is untouchable.


I'm with GBF on rhinos over drop pods, but it is because I want more control over my forces and more opportunities to revise my battle plan, it has nothing to do with KP.

Thanks Shep, you said it well.

Pods are not useless by any means, that is a blanket statement that can never be true of anything in the game, there is always a use for a unit in certain circumstances.

Pods are good, not awesometastic like they were early 4th, but still good. They just serve a different function now. In certain builds, pods make a huge difference. I am finding myself using more and more rhinos these days, but I still love my pods.

There are a million uses for them, you can build a pod wall to block enemy LOS and charges, you can land it on an objective, and now with the beacon, they can be used to bring in deep striking termies, gating Libbys, other pods, contesting objectives, keeping broken squads running off of the board, etc.

If you don't see a use in them, you aren't using them in varied enough ways. And yes they can be killed if someone shoots anti tank weapons at them, but hey, if they do that then I say sweet. They aren't shooting my important stuff.

I really like running 1-3 drop pods. I even kind of like my sternguard showing up a bit later, once the game has started to develop - I use Pedro so they are scoring which is kind of nice. Also, remember that you don't have to deploy troops in the pods so if you are facing a horde army and don't want to get close you can set the pods up in a place that will either A. pull them off to one side of the table or B. funnel them in a direction you want (since they will likely take advantage of the "free move" in a charge, whether they can blow it up or not.

I am honestly surprised that people are still complaining about kill points. It is a consideration when building a list, but far from being the be all end all of list design. It forces a balance of unit spam for objectives and survivability for kill points. I have both won and lost kill point games with and against as many as 15 kill points. It is how you use them more than - I don't want to be douchey and say "use taktiks hurrr" but sometimes, that is the case.

Shep wrote:Ah a kill points discussion...

Bottom line. Kill points work, if you haven't been able to adapt your play style and army construction style to the mission its not the game mechanics fault.

That's pretty flip to say. Bottom Line = KP work? Really? How would you comment about the rules in codices that are cropping up to dynamicly address KP and scoring units like Combat Squad and IG Squad Up then? Can you really justify armys (reasonably) created from different codices at the same point level that have disparate KP a good mechanic?

How is low quality armies fighting 1/3rd of their games (in KP missions) at a handicap a balance? Do Tau, (old) IG, etc. need a handicap against them in KP missions? Attached drones = KP? Pod is a KP? Armys can be built with under 10 kp?

It's broke shep.

Shep wrote:Kill points are perfect counterbalance to the fact that 66% of all missions are a straight up objective claiming game. Without kill points, 5th edition would be every single player maxing out his/her force org chart, bringing 17 units with as many dedicated transports as they could afford. Games would drag out as movement phases and shooting phases would take longer.

A Balance to what? Making pod armies statisticly disadvantaged in KP games, so... people won't play them? ..because pod armies need a balance for, what? They have 2 obvious disadvatages, 1 they come in from reserves in a random fashion, 2, they are a KP each. It's doubly bad.

I don't necesarily like the comparisson to the Demon army but what if every deep striking demon unit was worth 2 KP?

If all he has left is bolters and anti-infantry heavy weapons, then that armor 12 is untouchable.

Except for close combat where they suffer auto hits! grenades, fists, princes, singing spears, MCs,...

Also remember, the point was not that they are completely broken, just not a good tourney level choice.

BrookM wrote:Christ, it's not all kill points..

Right.

Imagine some drop podding Dreads emerging in the first round and landing on top of some mission objectives.
The enemy has to deal with both Dreads and Pods. Not all armies can handle both efficiently.

Augustus wrote:How would you comment about the rules in codices that are cropping up to dynamicly address KP and scoring units like Combat Squad and IG Squad Up then?

My comment is that a week from tomorrow the last of the loose ends are tied up.

Augustus wrote:Can you really justify armys (reasonably) created from different codices at the same point level that have disparate KP a good mechanic?

I can. Because the armies that have more kill points carry a marked advantage in obejctive games. They have more units that can score, and more units that can contest. How is that complicated?

Augustus wrote:How is low quality armies fighting 1/3rd of their games (in KP missions) at a handicap a balance? Do Tau, (old) IG, etc. need a handicap against them in KP missions? Attached drones = KP? Pod is a KP? Armys can be built with under 10 kp?

Tau, disadvantaged in KP games? perhaps if you are a tau player that hasn't made an adjustment I play a positional relay army with my tau and I jump for joy when we roll up annihilation. here's a batrep of just such a game. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236864.page

Old IG are legal for 7 more days. Enjoy that argument for the remaining time. And how is a drop pod somehow different than ANY transport in 40k in regards to kill points. Its not hard to kill, its worth a KP, and yet people of almost all army books take copious amounts of them. As soon as people start taking weaken resolve, and with lash out there dominating, every army that can be mechanized in the tourney scene will be taking transports. The army that clocks in at under 10KP will be lashed off of objectives or weaken resolved off the table without the transport to protect them.

And as far as NEW guard is concerned. My 16 KP list can't wait to roll annihilation. I don't have to move to get objectives now? Deal.

Augustus wrote:It's broke shep.

I strongly disagree, and have laid out my points as to why.

Augustus wrote:A Balance to what? Making pod armies statisticly disadvantaged in KP games, so... people won't play them? ..because pod armies need a balance for, what? They have 2 obvious disadvatages, 1 they come in from reserves in a random fashion, 2, they are a KP each. It's doubly bad.

Are you suggesting that space marine players take neither a rhino nor a drop pod? Or are you just trying to say that a drop pod is somehow more killable than a rhino? Drop pods are just one way to move your marines around the table. The rhino/razorback is the other. Both options make every unit worth 2 KPs. I haven't heard any marine player complain about kill points since they got combat squads until this post. SM does just FINE in KP missions in my experience.

Augustus wrote:I don't necesarily like the comparisson to the Demon army but what if every deep striking demon unit was worth 2 KP?

Well, if they had TWO units that can contest objectives, then YES i would want them to have 2 kill points. Remember that KP are not meant to be a 'simpler VP substitute' They are designed to balance the obvious advantages of taking MSU armies in an objective heavy mission environment.

Augustus wrote:Also remember, the point was not that they are completely broken, just not a good tourney level choice.

And here I can finally agree with you. i don't feel that drop pods are top tier, however, my opinion on this matter has nothing to do with their KP. It has everything to do with how vulnerable you instantly become to lash and weaken resolve.


Like Som was saying, the people who are still complaining about KP are becoming fewer and farther between. Its because everyone is figuring out WHY its in there. It isn't the most popular of missions initially, but like 'seize the initiative' it serves to counter certain undesirable elements of the game.

@oldgrue - Yes, I fully believe that for 30 odd points the entire imperial range shouldn't be able to essentially shut down an opponents ability to effectively use a deployment, or redeployment, strategy, by taking a elite choice from an alternate codex.

A codex for an army that's supposed to be rather secretive, go to such extreme lengths to keep knowledge of chaos and daemons hidden that they will kill their allies after a battle so that they don't risk becoming corrupted, and exist solely for the purpose of fighting chaos. Yeah, I can see how they'd be willing to farm out their inquisitors and mystics to sit there and point out to people where the huge, tank sized object leaving a smoking, fiery trail as it falls from the sky toward a spot 25 feet in front of you is going to land.

In response to the OP, I'm pretty sure it takes 2 of a combination of Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized results to cough up a KP on a drop pod; the first WD or I result will count as Weapon Destroyed, and break the one weapon on the drop pod.

"A vehicle that suffers either damaged result when it has no weapons left and is already immobilized treats the result as 'Destroyed - Wrecked' instead." BRB p61

Unless I'm missing something for KP scoring, I think you might be mistaken with the old Victory Point ruling.

For some armies, Pods are harder to kill than Rhinos. Pods have rear armor 12...

Situational, yeah, but still.