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What's the general consensus on these two when compared with eachother? The Crusader has a pretty spiffy rate of fire, and with transporting more people(read: terminators) can scare people off objectives pretty quickly.

However, the AP3 Templates that ignore cover can make pretty short work of quite a few things in the Redeemer's case.

So what's the general view, fellows? I'm not running Vulkan, otherwise it's a way one sided answer, so I seek your knowledge.

Regards
Jimmy

I have not played the Redeemer that much, the two times it ended dying to melta before I could get it close enough to kill anything. I just love the Crusader though for the exact reason of more Termies.

I currently only have 5 Termies, so transport isn't that much of an issue. I'll be getting more on the road to 2000 points, however. Currently Pedro Kantor is with them too, if that means anything. Though they are Power Fist/Storm Bolter termies and not TH/SS Termies, because they are from Black Reach.

Plus the newcomers will have Cyclone Missile Launchers. Booyah, explosions.

If that swings things one way or another...?

I am curios about his as well as I just can't see taking the redeemer over the crusader. The crusader is awesome, and if you get close enough to use the redeemer cannon (and does it frequently hit the same squad as they are firing from opposite sides of the tank?) you are close enough to get assaulted and melta'd with ease.

The crusader can move and shoot everything at a comfortable range, carries more guys and would seem to me, to be more versatile.

Haha, I was just mulling over this exact question in my theory-couch last night!

LRR won the theory battle, and here was the criteria.

They are holding an assault unit, so I want to move. We are playing 5th edition, so i want a multi-melta. I'm not running more than 6 termies in any of my lists since the book came out so transport is a non-factor.

LRR moves 12" or is crew shaken and fires a multi-melta or a flamestorm cannon or an assault cannon

LRC moves 12" or is crew shaken and fires a multi-melta or an assault cannon

Ok, so far the LRR is winning.

LRR moves 6" and fires a multi-melta and one flamestorm cannon or assault cannon at a different target, or two flamestorm cannons at different targets, or an assault cannon and one flamestorm cannon at different targets

LRC moves 6" and fires a multi-melta and fires all hurricanes and assault cannons at a different target

So at this speed the LRC can shoot at max efficiency. While shooting the multi-melta, it outputs 6 twin-linked bolter shots (or 12 at close range) and 4 twin-linked assault cannon shots. The best the LRR can do while firing the multi-melta is the 4 twin-linked assault cannon shots, or, if in the right position the flamestorm. Which could yield as many deaths as the LRC's full compliment. With no multi-melta targets in range, the LRR can match the output of the LRC easily if its in the right position. Advantage LRC.

LRR stationary can fire MM at something else and everything else at infantry, or can split its flamestorm cannons at two targets

LRC stationary does that same as LRC moving 6"

This category is fairly useless, as you shouldn't really ever plan to be sitting still. But after a crew stunned, I'd have to say that the LRC fares better with the longer range.

Theory falls really flat when we are talking about weapon ranges. The LRC certainly is more user friendly. The flamestorm has much better defense against armies that want to CC your LRs to kill them like orks. The flamestorm cannon absolutely has more X factors... intimidation, destruction of turbo-boosters, killer of camo cloaks. The final straw is the 10 point savings.

Its a really well balanced, close comparison. But i say LRR.

There ic certainly good arguments for both of them, it's true. I actually hadn't considered that within 12 inch the LRC would fire 6 shots. That's pretty awesome damagewise. Once it deposits the Termies, it can basically act as a mobile fire support platform, where the Redeemer is more useful to punch through lines with it's larger potential destruction.

My wonder is, with regards to the Redeemer, that any Melta unit that needs to get in would be in range of the Flamestorm Cannon, which is risky for both sides.

Thoughts, gents?

Regards
Jimmy

WGXH wrote:My wonder is, with regards to the Redeemer, that any Melta unit that needs to get in would be in range of the Flamestorm Cannon, which is risky for both sides.

Yeah, that is true. But when I'm playing thunderhammer termies in land raiders, I have made the decision to be the aggressor. hanging back with my transport so that a combat squad melta gun can't get close to me doesn't really seem like utilizing my terminators to their best ability.

If i saw a melta-wagon heading towards me, I might try to physically screen with a rhino, or take the hit, and then counter assault the unit with the melta.

Or i might be able to pull off a transport kill with one of my combat squad missile launchers or combat squad melta/combi-melta, then you can use the flamestorm cannon to silence the melta before it shoots.

Its all theoretical. I've played mostly with LRCs lately.

I love my Redeemer. Vulkan doesn't really have an effect on it unless you buy the MM upgrade, so that shouldn't have anything to do with your decision. There is nothing more gratifying than baking an entire squad of traitor marines. The Crusader is nice as far as capacity and rate-of-fire goes. If you don't have a whole lot of dakka in your list as it stands, it might be a good option for you to fill in the anti-infantry role at 12-24".

I'd take the Crusader.
The Redeemers flamers are pretty hard to use effectively.

wuestenfux wrote:I'd take the Crusader.
The Redeemers flamers are pretty hard to use effectively.

But when you do... it is delicious.

I take one of each. They work well in pairs. You have 2 turns to take them both out, at most. Which one do you choose? Termies and cassius or ap3 str6 no cover save that also is carrying troops to make it scoring?

imweasel wrote:I take one of each. They work well in pairs. You have 2 turns to take them both out, at most. Which one do you choose? Termies and cassius or ap3 str6 no cover save that also is carrying troops to make it scoring?

In the grim darkness of the far future, Jimmy cannot afford to fund his marines.

That's a good idea when I can afford it in, like, November. but currently I can only nab the one, and it's a Transport for the Termies because I only gots one Heavy Support to spare.

With regards to Dakka in my list:

Well, I got 30 Tacticals(Themed Squads, 1 with Plasma Gun/Cannon, 1 with Multi/Meltagun, and AobR with Flamer/Missile) 10 Scouts with Snipers to pin dudes, 1 Squad of 5 Devs all with Missile Launchers, a HB AC Predator to cover most of my anti infantry. The rest are counter-assault units, really. A dreadnought with MM/DCCW(Storm Bolter), 5 Assault Marines(Sergeant dramatically posed to deliver his patented Flying Headbutt), and 5 Termies. I feel more like anything I lack anti-tank, but most dudes have meltabombs, and I'm of the mindset[However flawed] that by taking out vast amounts of troops, I can negate the majority of their army and hold onto objectives easier.

Annihilation will be a toughie.

So that's my full shiznit. It's a reasonable amount of dakka.

Yeah, anti-armor is going to be your downfall for the most part. You'd almost be better off with a standard LR. Being able to mow down a mess of troops is all fine and good, unless they're all in transports.

That's what the other Heavy Support Choice is being left open for. This one is acting more or less purely to transport the Termies in to tie up some dudes while the rest of my army gets nice and ready to dakka down.

This thread got me thinking if I should actually build my next land raider as a crusader since I already have two redeemers.

In general the best bet for a redeemer is to put your most assault based unit in it and drive forward. For me this is vulkan, libby (for null zone/psychic hood range), and 5 TH/SS terminators.

The trick is to think of the land raider as just an effective delievery system for the unit. I only need it to last until my 2nd turn to get my assault unit where I need it to be. Anything after that is extra benefit. However, the AP3 templates are GREAT for objective clearing.

If i could only take one, lrc is it. Carries 8 termies. Pick up another 5 aobr on ebay and your good to go

quad post

quad post

quad post

Whoa... Quadpost!

The Redeemer is also cheaper. I'm not sure if 10 points is going to make or break your list, either, but it's something to consider.

asugradinwa wrote:This thread got me thinking if I should actually build my next land raider as a crusader since I already have two redeemers.

Magnets, or a clever tube-support method that I saw on these forums, allow you to do both! The idea of 3 Redeemers on the board makes me giggle like a small child.

imweasel wrote:If i could only take one, lrc is it. Carries 8 termies. Pick up another 5 aobr on ebay and your good to go

imweasel wrote:If i could only take one, lrc is it. Carries 8 termies. Pick up another 5 aobr on ebay and your good to go

imweasel wrote:If i could only take one, lrc is it. Carries 8 termies. Pick up another 5 aobr on ebay and your good to go

imweasel wrote:If i could only take one, lrc is it. Carries 8 termies. Pick up another 5 aobr on ebay and your good to go

Geez dude, get to the point!

I think in the long run, I'll be going with the Crusader. Thanks for the discussion, y'all.

That said, I'm now seriously considering dropping the Dreadnought from my list, filling the Elite slots with Termies, and walking around with 4 LRs...

Beardy Cheese, though. Hrmh.

Because im a Black Templar lover and am an absolute fluff nut, i wouldnt trade 1 LRC for 5 LRR in a battle, plus love those termies in a LRC, super cinematic

I run of each with a good deal of success. Looking at your list, a standard land raider is a better fit. You REALLY need those las cannons!

They are both very viable units; as farr as choices my reason for picking the Redeemer over a Crusader is threat factor.

You do not want a redeemer in your deployment zone and once it delivers its payload it is still very incredibly viable for multiple roles.

After a Crusader drops off its payload sure it has twinlinked bolters and multi; but it does not have a hug OMG blow it up factor.

The redeemer is going to draw fire especially melta weapons.

Couple a Redeemer with some drop poding dreads and its a very difficult decision for your opponent to make.

This discussion has come up before, check previous threads for more info.