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My opponent tired to say this was possible in my game tonight, I said no way in hell.

The rule book does not address this.

The power states if the model is in 6" it can be targeted even if not in LOS. But the model is not on the board, so therefore cannot be targeted, was my reasoning.

That seems preposterous to me. Psychic powers can come out of a vehicle because it is specifically allowed.

Has this been discussed? What if any conclusion was reached?

Thanks.

I would say no, You are right though. This is a gray area of the rules, but fortunately this has been FAQ by GW.

My Point is with the recent RB FAQ which stated:

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

Granted the answer leads you to believe that this is in reference to friendly powers, but even FAQs can be RAW'd. And with that in mind a very firm 'No' is GW's official answer to psychic powers used on embarked units.

Cool that is what I thought. Thank you very much Padixon.

Wait a second, the Damon book says specifically that these are not Psychic powers.

Hmmm.

It just feels so wrong! How the hell do you turn a model into a spawn in the tank? What do you do with it? Disembark it?

Ugh, stupid rules need to be more clear. Its not like Daemons need any more advantages.

It's a shooting attack, therefore while you can use it in melee or target a model in melee you are still "shooting" the target model, you definitely cannot shoot models in a transport, but I can't find a quote for this. To put it simply, If your opponent can use boon of mutation on models inside a vehicle, you can use regular old firearms on models inside a vehicle.

edit: Maybe not plain firearms due to the LOS restrictions, you would certainly be able to attempt to fire barrage weapons into a vehicle though.

IIRC (don't have the Daemons codex on me right now), the Daemons codex says that all ranged attacks in the codex count as shooting attacks.

Therefore, Boon of Mutation would not be allowed to target a model in a vehicle as it wouldn't be in LOS. I don't think that Boon specifies it can be used on models out of LOS, so it can't.

The only exception is has, (again IIRC) is that it is allowed to target models in CC, but that's it.

Both Boon of Mutation is a ranged weapon, but 1) the target can be in close combat, 2) the firer can be in close combat, 3) no line of sight is required, and 4) the target model must be "found to be within 6"".

The psychic power FAQ establishes a precedent that one shouldn't go around targeting units embarked on transports, but what's the mileage on precedent around here?

On the other hand, unless the target is a lone model embarked on the transport, it's very difficult to establish the range to any particular model in a unit in a transport. There are rules for determining distance for effects based on the unit, but nothing exists in the rulebook for effects based on (or targeting of) specific models. I believe this is the point of reasoning where the FAQ says "For the sake of simplicity, don't target units or models in a transport."

No, it counts as a shooting attack. Shooting Attacks of ANY kind cannot affect models inside a vehicle directly unless a special rule says otherwise. Boon of Mutation has no such special rule, so it cannot affect models inside a transport.

The power says it odes not need LOS, but it is a bit of a mess. Thanks for the input guys.

I say no way, as nothing can target a unit in a transport.

Hey GWAR!, do you have a reference in the codex for that? I looked up the shooting rules and saw nothing restricting that (besides common sense, obviously). Did I miss something?

And Solkan, you are correct. The Rhino was about half way in range of the power, so I said all my guys were sitting in the front of it, out of range! How do you prove that?

I think that yes, for the sake of simplicity, units may not be targeted as it causes too many problems. I would just like to be able to back that up with something solid as my club plays strict RAW unless we vote otherwise.

It says it counts as a "Ranged Weapon" Page 73 of Codex: Chaos Daemons. Since it is a ranged weapon being used in the Shooting Phase...

Ok cool, then I am assuming that there is something in the BGB that says no targeting of units in a transport?

Thanks GWAR!.

There's nothing in the BGB I just checked, it is assumed in the rules or must have thought to have been covered by the LOS issue.

feth, it is not exactly clear. This is so annoying.

Well, I suppose the Psychic Power issue is the only thing even pertaining to it remotely and will be used to found my argument.

It just causes too many problems.

The relevant rule is on page 66:
When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported.

Because they are not on the table, you cannot fire at them or do anything at them.

Sweet! Thanks GWAR!, I missed that.

That settles it then.

And they say following RaW is a bad thing

Gwar! wrote:And they say following RaW is a bad thing

I like raw

Except they are considered to still be on the table, and you measure to the hull for range.

There is no rule saying you can't target units/models in a vehicle, but if you allow that, it gets ugly. barrage weapons, smart missile systems, etc.

So no, no targetting units in vehicles. The FAQ should be enough to make that true.