Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When a vehicle is exploded the rule book says, remove the vehicle and replace it with an area of scattered wreckage or a crater(if you have one).

Is there some ruling on this? I have always played where you just use your vehicle to represent the area of wreckage, or if you have a crater, you can replace it with a crater. I had someone insist that if you didn't have scattered wreckage and/or crater then you remove the vehicle and replace it with nothing, I felt that was totally wrong.

thoughts?

'Destroyed - Wrecked' is one thing.

'Destroyed - Explodes' is somthing else.

The former you simply leave the (burning hull of the) vehicle there. It blocks terrain as a big lump of metal/wraithbone should.

The latter you remove the vehicle (as per instructions) and replace it with a marker signifing this area is now scattered with bigs of metal or/and is a crater.


This is because with the latter, the vehicle actually exploded all over (rather than just on the inside..poor crew) and is now in bits. Theres nothing left, apart from a crater and/or bits.

People arguing parts of the rulings which were written to allow new players without all of the trappings of a rich (experienced) player to play fine are just asshats of the most highest degree. A cheap fix would be, get a blast/large blast template & affix it with blue tack... or do the same with model bases. At the very least some scrap paper will be fine.

Razerous is correct. The only time you may remove a destroyed vehicle is if the result is "Destroyed - Explodes!"

In the other case you have to leave the vehicle on the table as a wreck, so it will affect LoS etc

It's also important to note that the area where the vehicle used to be is considered Difficult Terrain... I think...

::edited for brainfart::

Does anyone believe that at any time if a vehicle explodes it is replaced with nothing? (and if so, please explain)

Well, if you don't have anything to place where the vehicle once was, which is hard to believe since there exists a simple thing called paper... then yes. If it explodes, it is no longer there for the purposes of blocking LoS, impeding movement, or anything. The in-game/terrain results of a Destroyed - Explodes! result are clearly outlined in the BGB.

Wrecked result= Leave the model (upside down or some cotton smoke) and it counts as Dangerous Terrain

Destroyed= Remove the model and replace it with a crater

I had some old Rhinos in bad shape laying around so I made wrecks for my four rhinos (new ones) out of them and square rhino-sized craters for them as well. I went a bit nuts after that and did the same for my 3 Dreads as well. Now every vehicle in my Legion of Brass has a Wreck/Crater to mark them!

Sazzlefrats wrote:Does anyone believe that at any time if a vehicle explodes it is replaced with nothing? (and if so, please explain)

I believe that, actually.

The rules call for the Destroyed-Exploded vehicle to be removed. If you've got something to represent debris, great. But leaving the vehicle on the table has all sorts of implications for true LoS - that dead Land Raider (or whatever) has to go. (Additionally, it's sometimes hard to place any transported models where the vehicle used to be, if it's still sitting there.)

And then Janth, if you don't have a crater marker or destroyed vehicle marker, do you play that area of scattered wreckage as if it were clear terrain? I'm just curious because whilst you may have an issue with LOS by leaving the original vehicle (which I leave the destroyed vehicle if I didn't bring my wreck markers, but I always treat it as a clear shot if you are hiding behind it from shooting), you may end up having a greater issue of how far models can move in the next movement phase and may drastically alter the next assault phase?


Hey, when you are going to GK again, I still have that small blast template of yours.

Janthkin wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:Does anyone believe that at any time if a vehicle explodes it is replaced with nothing? (and if so, please explain)

I believe that, actually.

The rules call for the Destroyed-Exploded vehicle to be removed. If you've got something to represent debris, great. But leaving the vehicle on the table has all sorts of implications for true LoS - that dead Land Raider (or whatever) has to go. (Additionally, it's sometimes hard to place any transported models where the vehicle used to be, if it's still sitting there.)

Again - it's called paper. If the subsequent difficult terrain is that much of an issue (I think that the LoS concerns are greater, personally, if the model is not removed), then get some paper out on the table to mark the area somehow.

I keep a set of very different colored dice in my bag from the ones I use. When a vehicle is exploded, I make a box using 4 dice where the 4 corners of the tank were. The area inside that box is now Difficult terrain. When I get around to it, I am going to make a few cardboard foot prints of my tanks with some small bits of rubble to represent the difficult terrain. I dont want to make the rubble too big because people will attempt to use it as cover. It is not cover, just difficult terrain.

jawaballs wrote:I keep a set of very different colored dice in my bag from the ones I use. When a vehicle is exploded, I make a box using 4 dice where the 4 corners of the tank were. The area inside that box is now Difficult terrain. When I get around to it, I am going to make a few cardboard foot prints of my tanks with some small bits of rubble to represent the difficult terrain. I dont want to make the rubble too big because people will attempt to use it as cover. It is not cover, just difficult terrain.

This, too!

Even a circle of dice will do at a push.

I dont want to make the rubble too big because people will attempt to use it as cover. It is not cover, just difficult terrain.

I would argue that it IS cover, as what is listed in the damage chart (pg 61) "Wreckage" and "Crater" are both listed as cover in the chart for cover saves on pg. 21.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

I dont want to make the rubble too big because people will attempt to use it as cover. It is not cover, just difficult terrain.

I would argue that it IS cover, as what is listed in the damage chart (pg 61) "Wreckage" and "Crater" are both listed as cover in the chart for cover saves on pg. 21.

What Nurgleboy said. The rules say replace it with a crater, so it's a crater.

I am not an English major. I will however, try to interpret the rule. The sentence:

"The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one)"

This is one interpretation:

The vehicle is then removed and replaced with an area of difficult ground (if you have one). The area of difficult ground represents scattered wreckage or a crater.

This is another interpretation:

The vehicle is then removed and replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage. Or it may be replaced with a crater (if you have one).

I do not know which interpretation is RAW, I am not an English major. However, since a scattered wreckage and a crater are really no different in game terms (they both are difficult ground and give a cover save), the first interpretation seems more logical.

The interpretation of this rule is very important and should be FAQed in my opinion. Assault armies that depend on transports are at a huge disadvantage if they have to roll difficult terrain tests to get out of what's left of their transports after an explosion. If I were transport assault army player, I would never bring wreckage or crater markers, as it would undoubtedly be at my disadvantage.

slainex wrote:
The interpretation of this rule is very important and should be FAQed in my opinion. Assault armies that depend on transports are at a huge disadvantage if they have to roll difficult terrain tests to get out of what's left of their transports after an explosion. If I were transport assault army player, I would never bring wreckage or crater markers, as it would undoubtedly be at my disadvantage.

I think you're crazy (and I mean that in a nice way).

The cover saves gained from the crater against any more potential firing IMHO waaaay more than makes up for potential loss of movement, especially since when a vehicle explodes the passengers tend to be left in a nice juicy clump on the table just perfect to be shot at by any remaining blast weapons in the enemy army.

yakface wrote:The cover saves gained from the crater against any more potential firing IMHO waaaay more than makes up for potential loss of movement, especially since when a vehicle explodes the passengers tend to be left in a nice juicy clump on the table just perfect to be shot at by any remaining blast weapons in the enemy army.

Wait, has everyone been playing it that the vehicle is replaced with cover? It always struck me that the rule was pretty clear: It's replaced with difficult ground, not cover, and this is how everyone at my FLGS has played it.

Some people play it that "Craters" give a 5+ cover save, others might not. It's up to the players/TO

Gwar! wrote:Some people play it that "Craters" give a 5+ cover save, others might not. It's up to the players/TO

Actually it's up to pg. 21 of the rulebook....

"..Craters, Wreckage..." 4+ cover save

And you do know you can change anything you want?

If I wanna say that hedge gives a 2+ save it can.

it was just an example ffs.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Actually it's up to pg. 21 of the rulebook....

"..Craters, Wreckage..." 4+ cover save

Yeah, but look at Page 61: "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one).

It's not crystal clear, but I've always read the use of the phrase "difficult ground" (as opposed to "area terrain" or "cover") as a deliberate choice. What follows "representing" is fluff explaining why the ground is now difficult / advice on how you can place a reminder of the difficult ground.

As a general tendency, I find that the rules read much clearer if you excise all attempts by GW to explain what their rules interactions are meant to actually "represent", and just focus on what they say. After all, the "Crew - Stunned" rules make reference to the vehicles crew possibly "bail[ing] out of the vehicle and tak[ing] cover somewhere nearby." Which raises all sorts of hairy questions for what happens to the crew when barrage shots go astray.

Dave47 wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Actually it's up to pg. 21 of the rulebook....

"..Craters, Wreckage..." 4+ cover save

Yeah, but look at Page 61: "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one).

It's not crystal clear, but I've always read the use of the phrase "difficult ground" (as opposed to "area terrain" or "cover") as a deliberate choice. What follows "representing" is fluff explaining why the ground is now difficult / advice on how you can place a reminder of the difficult ground.

As a general tendency, I find that the rules read much clearer if you excise all attempts by GW to explain what their rules interactions are meant to actually "represent", and just focus on what they say. After all, the "Crew - Stunned" rules make reference to the vehicles crew possibly "bail[ing] out of the vehicle and tak[ing] cover somewhere nearby." Which raises all sorts of hairy questions for what happens to the crew when barrage shots go astray.

take the bold off the difficult ground and focus on what its representing.... both difficult ground and scattered wreckage have equal weight and have rules in the rulebook.

Page 61
1) Explodes: The vehicle model is removed.
2) There is an area of difficult ground occupying the space where the crater was.
2a) The Difficult Ground represents the scattered wreckage or a crater.
2b) How one marks this area is up to the player (i.e., using a crater, dice, or etc).
3) Scattered wreckage/crater (p.21) provides a 4+ cover save.
3a) Use LOS/cover save rules to determine what models benefit from the cover save.

However, one can take this a step further in that:
3b) If opponent disagrees, refer to modifying the cover save per the rule book.

Addressing the phrase "if you have one."

This refers to if the owner of the vehicle model has a crater marker/object. If the owner has a crater, then the space occupied by the vehicle, prior to the explosion, now is occupied by a crater.

If one does not have a crater marker/object, it does not void the fact that the area is still difficult ground and provides a cover save granted by the type of cover (wreckage/crater).

However, LOS may be affected given the size of a crater. For example, one may have a 2D "paper crater". Now one refers to true LOS and the cover rules. On the other hand, one may have a 3D "x sized" crater that is equal to or slightly smaller than the vehicle it is replacing. Again, one would refer to true LOS and the cover rules.

This brings back the point of "one can use modeling..."

nikeforever22 wrote:Addressing the phrase "if you have one."

This refers to if the owner of the vehicle model has a crater marker/object. If the owner has a crater, then the space occupied by the vehicle, prior to the explosion, now is occupied by a crater.

If one does not have a crater marker/object, it does not void the fact that the area is still difficult ground and provides a cover save granted by the type of cover (wreckage/crater).

However, LOS may be affected given the size of a crater. For example, one may have a 2D "paper crater". Now one refers to true LOS and the cover rules. On the other hand, one may have a 3D "x sized" crater that is equal to or slightly smaller than the vehicle it is replacing. Again, one would refer to true LOS and the cover rules.

This brings back the point of "one can use modeling..."

A crater would be area terrain so would give a 4+ cover save to anyone in it regardless of LOS

As I play an all mech Dark Eldar list, this tends to come up (though not as much as you would think.) I made raider shaped paper cut-outs for all my raiders/ravagers so if they explode we have something to represent the rubble/crater. And to date not a single opponent has questioned the 4+ cover save the survivors get from the crater/wreckage.

Does the unit that is forced to disembark have to be placed where the wreck is or are they supposed to be placed outside of the wreckage?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Does the unit that is forced to disembark have to be placed where the wreck is or are they supposed to be placed outside of the wreckage?

G

Destroyed - Wrecked: Models immediately Disembark and take a Pinning test
Destroyed - Explodes!: The vehicle is removed and replaced with [terrain], all embarked models take an S4 hit (for most vehicles, I think Opened Topped are S3), the survivors are placed in the [terrain] and must immediately take a Pinning test

I don't know the page number, but it's in the Transports and Shooting section or something like that.

:: Deleted for stupidity ::