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I have not seen them used, but has anyone used the following build?
vanguard with jump packs and lightning claw pairs, chaplain with jump pack.
With heroic intervention, rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, they would be vicious. I just don't know if the level of hate is worth the points...

Inigo Montoya wrote:I have not seen them used, but has anyone used the following build?
vanguard with jump packs and lightning claw pairs, chaplain with jump pack.
With heroic intervention, rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, they would be vicious. I just don't know if the level of hate is worth the points...

No consolidation, 3+ save on a 60 pt model = No.

Vanguard will never be a good choice. Fun perhaps but not good. If they had give them heroic intervention + consolidation into fresh enemy *maybe*...but still doubtful.

Also they can't use Feroic Intervention if a character joins their unit, so the Chappy can't roll with them if you want to use HI.

The key to making the unit work decently is to make sure they don't maul whatever they charge so badly that they aren't in combat during the opposing player's turn because then he'll get to shoot them. With this in mind your best bet is to try and multi-charge things o you can stay locked with at least 1 unit during their turn. If you take Shrike in the same list they can deepstrike, then fleet, then heroic intervention, which gives them a potentially large threat radius.

IMO they're simply overcosted by a huge amount and as a result there are much better units to take instead.

Caffran9 wrote: If you take Shrike in the same list they can deepstrike, then fleet, then heroic intervention, which gives them a potentially large threat radius.

No, they can't. Heroic Intervention was written in a way that they just plain fail, all the time.

This unit is worthless.

They are highly situational, but have an ability that is unique. Their best bet is to be kept as cheap as possible and used to assault isolated or particularly dangerous foes. They can work against loota squads and other such things like broadsides and havocs and crisis teams. The issue is that they are unreliable. Even with a bare minimum squad, you're looking at a hefty investment. If their ability fails them, they're screwed. Another issues is the aforementioned no consolidate. It reduces their ability to reach new targets without getting murdered after attacking the first one. This greatly reduces the amount of targets they can engage while still being worth the points you pay for them. Not saying that they HAVE to make their points back to be worthwhile, but since they aren't cheap and are unreliable, they don't seem to have the potential that would make competitive players consider taking a risk on them.

My opponents like to use LOTS of heavy weapons. I've fitted mine with Storm shields (no jump packs) and run them tandem with a unit of Stern guard. Stern guard more forward and rapid fire, than vanguard runs past them to provide cover. defensively I just sit them one in front of the other, against MEQ just fire either hellfire rounds, (2+ to wound I think) or if you need range, kraken, and for lighter armor (5+) use the ignore cover save rounds. to get to your shooting unit, they have to fight through the vanguard who can take the brunt of most elite CCS's.

That's a very interesting formation idea, Pi, kind of like mixing arbalests and halberds. You've given me some interesting ideas to try out for a walking phalanx of marines.

I'm trying to work out a way to make a "perfect" unit of VV, but all I can come up with is overcosted-ness.

My favorite idea so far is 8 Vets + 1 Pair LC, 2 PF, Powersword x 3, without Jump Packs. In a Land Raider Redeemer (or Crusader) with PA Character of choice, non-biked Kor'Sarro comes to mind for his granted Furious Charge, or Cassius for super-toughness and re-rolls. I'd probably run this unit with Sicarious personally, since I use him for so much else in my force. I know the LR wastes the HI rule, but as others have said, it's so inconsistent to be just not worth it. However, this is a great way to make your own custom CC hammer unit of veterans. Nothing is more annoying to me than seeing an Ork Boy's statline with 2 Attacks when a SM gets one.

Vanguard are not viable in serious competition.

You can use them in scenarios or fun games (but this caveat applies to everything) but you get the most out of them in Apocalypse games.

Run 10 with jump packs and power weapons (400 pts) and give them the replacements asset. Turbo boost a scout bike with locator beacon into the enemy line next to their hardest unit. Drop in the VV's and let them butcher it before being annihilated by return fire (this has the advantage that the enemy is not shooting at other things.

Replacements lets you rinse and repeat, by which point you've more than made back their cost. Any survivors then jump around harrassing the backfield.

Its points-efficient but the best thing is the psychological effect. Opponents just can't help getting obssessed about killing them, which gives you openings elsewhere...

I beg to differ, I use a squad in my Salamander army frequently and they are money almost every time! The key is seeing where the strength and weaknesses are. They are a hard hitting unit that has amazing survivabilty if you set them up correctly. Since I play Sally's, I drop the jump packs immediately and put them in a LR. I do this for fluff reasons plus it makes them more survivable. Then everybody gets a stormshield and the Seargent gets a relic blade. For the extra 60 points you can give every one else a lightning claw as well, I only do that in games at 2000 pts or better. Then I attach Vulkan and viola, one bad-ass unit that has two relic blades, a bunch of melee attacks, all 3+ invulnerable saves, and a heavy flamer. This unit nearly always makes back their points, it excells in HQ hunting and taking units off well defended objectives.

Moral of the story is try not to get to caught up in the heroic bit and use them more like Termies out of a LR. Give it a try and see if the results are a little better.

Yeah I wouldn't go so far as to call them useless however they do need to have a very defined role for your army they aren't something to be splashed in because you had some points left over.

IMO VV's are best used as a scalpel to carve away a small piece of the opponents army setting up their demise in the greater scheme of things, if you can't find a use for them in that vein i would suggest passing them over for something that fits better with your overall strategy.

People bitter much about this unit hehe. They are too expensive but with the ability to assault without being shot at you can run havok with this squad really puts your enemy on its toes.

Jpepper4451 wrote:I beg to differ, I use a squad in my Salamander army frequently and they are money almost every time! The key is seeing where the strength and weaknesses are. They are a hard hitting unit that has amazing survivabilty if you set them up correctly. Since I play Sally's, I drop the jump packs immediately and put them in a LR. I do this for fluff reasons plus it makes them more survivable. Then everybody gets a stormshield and the Seargent gets a relic blade. For the extra 60 points you can give every one else a lightning claw as well, I only do that in games at 2000 pts or better. Then I attach Vulkan and viola, one bad-ass unit that has two relic blades, a bunch of melee attacks, all 3+ invulnerable saves, and a heavy flamer. This unit nearly always makes back their points, it excells in HQ hunting and taking units off well defended objectives.

Moral of the story is try not to get to caught up in the heroic bit and use them more like Termies out of a LR. Give it a try and see if the results are a little better.

Not to sound like an idiot, but aren't you essentially paying Terminator prices for less than terminator durability and offensive power? VVs with storm shields are 35pts, for 5pts more you get a thunder hammer, a 2+/5++ and re-rolls thanks to vulkan.

Especially considering that Sternguard enjoy cheaper combi-weapons, I don't see why Vets don't get reduced prices on wargear, combat shields, or both.

well that was the most compelling counterpoint i've read in a while!

The only thing Vanguard should be used for is Blood Angel Veteran Assault Squads.

I never bother with HI when I run my VV squads. I usually set them up with:
Jump Packs
2x TH/SS
2x LC/SS
1x RB/SS
If I'm feeling saucy, I'll attach a Captain with Jump Pack, Storm Shield, and Relic Blade or a Jump Pack Chaplain.

Yes, it's a lot of points, but it's also a really fun unit to bounce around the field and into squishy units.

About the only benefit to VV as opposed to Assault terminators is that you can fit more into a landraider, letting you spend more points (yay?) and squeeze more hurt into a landraider (or a rhino/drop pod, but I think those are poor choices).
Personally, I don't think taking up one slot instead of two in a landraider is worth the points differential considering you lose the 2+/5++ save, especially when you can get a 5 man command squad that is nearly the same thing but has an apothecary to help protect your expensive investment in power weapons. But, if you don't mind dropping 400 points or so on Vets, then another 100+ on a chaplain or captain, then another 250 or so on a landraider, you can have a LOT of hurt in an AV 14 shell.

So, again... yay?

I think Vanguarg are viable if supported correctly. Two Drops Pods filled with Dreads or Sternguard can set up a good heroic intervention if played properly.

Another option I see is playing as a secondary unit to another Assault Squad.

But I agree that storm sheilds are a waste on the unit. I would take maybe two or three close combat weapons in a unit of 6 or 8.

In the army list section I put up a list built on the phalanx idea.

They aren't bad in a rhino with no upgrades. They essentially become slightly better assault marines for what isn't all that substantial of a price. At 20 points per extra man they are 2 more points for one extra attack and point of leadership. For that they lose the jetpack. Not tremendous, but they can be a pretty hard hitting unit for 225 points.

40 attacks on the charge for 225
31 attacks on the charge for 190 + jumpack

Okay, yeah they are a bit pricey. But they provide an alternative... You're better off with a command squad doing the same thing but with FNP.

Locator beacon makes their special effect a bit more reliable. A bit...

Vanguard are decent.
For +10 points per model over regular assault marines you get heroic intervention, +1 attack, and the ability to take a lot of cool weapons. Never leave home without it as there are better foot sloging assault units in a marine army.
2/3 of the missions are about troops. Since heroic intervention allows you to come down anywhere and your equipement can allow you to deal with any threat you meet these guys can destroy troups handily. Sure they will eat death after that buy if you acomplish what you set out to do who cares. One 400 point squad can combat squad down, destroy one troop, and tie up another (if your really good the ensuing combat will block LOS to the first half).
After a bit they will die but so what. Troops are what matters.

In a kill point mission they are even better as they are extremly good at taking out more than one kill point in a game (under a good general's directorship).

Give them a couple storm shields, a couple fists, and a few melta bombs and let them run arround like maniacs.

When the rumors were flying people were screaming that these guys would be rediculasly unballanced. Did you honestly expect to get that ability for +5 points?

sourclams wrote:

Caffran9 wrote: If you take Shrike in the same list they can deepstrike, then fleet, then heroic intervention, which gives them a potentially large threat radius.

No, they can't. Heroic Intervention was written in a way that they just plain fail, all the time.

This unit is worthless.

wow. That is just plain awful.

I never looked at it very closely, I just assumed (my first mistake) they could work like that because I didn't think (my second mistake) it was possible for a unit to fail that badly