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Ok you 40k 5th edition guru's...I've got a few questions after reviewing the IG codex in detail.


One of the big concerns I have about really getting back into 40k with my IG is the kill point system for 1/3 of the missions in the rule book.

The new IG codex seems to help with that a bit, because of the ability to merge your Infantry squads togeather into a single unit. But it has been a few years since I've had to get into a 40k rules debate, and I don't want to get into one in one of my first 'new' games of 40k so can anyone answer these questions for me...

- Does the "merge infantry squad" rule really reduce the kill points? i.e. If I merge 3 10 man squads into 1 30 man squad is that really now only 1 kill point instead of 3? Or are kill points some how assesed based on what is in your list, not how it is formed on the field? I can't find clarity on this.

- The definition of "characters" and kill points confuses me. In the kill point section it says you get kill points for each squad and any characters in the squad. In the character section of the book, it defines two kinds of characters, "independent" characters and "upgraded" characters in squads like veteran sgts. This seems to imply that a vt sgt is just as much a character as a Force Commander. So...

- An independant character with a retenue is worth 2 kill points right? 1 for the character, and 1 for the retenue.

- Is a vt Sgt worth a kill point? If so, then a marine squad with a vt sgt is 2 kill points?

- Commisars are squad upgrades now, like vt sgts. So would an IG squad with a vt sgt and a commisar be worth 3 kill points?

- Have there been any FAQ's or other clarifications to the kill point rules?

And 1 other question...

- Is the IG platoon minimum 1? I'm not clear on that system any more. Do you HAVE to take an IG platoon? Can you have more than one platoon?


Thanks for your patence with an old 40k veteran that's trying to sort out this brave new world.

P.S. I'm looking for RAW interpretations on this stuff, mostly because I'm afraid I will get into arguments with folks and I want to be able to back up the ideas with rules in the book. It seems to me the Kill Point section is a little light on text.

RussWakelin wrote:Ok you 40k 5th edition guru's...I've got a few questions after reviewing the IG codex in detail.


One of the big concerns I have about really getting back into 40k with my IG is the kill point system for 1/3 of the missions in the rule book.

The new IG codex seems to help with that a bit, because of the ability to merge your Infantry squads togeather into a single unit. But it has been a few years since I've had to get into a 40k rules debate, and I don't want to get into one in one of my first 'new' games of 40k so can anyone answer these questions for me...

- Does the "merge infantry squad" rule really reduce the kill points? i.e. If I merge 3 10 man squads into 1 30 man squad is that really now only 1 kill point instead of 3? Or are kill points some how assesed based on what is in your list, not how it is formed on the field? I can't find clarity on this.

This is the anti-Combat Squad. So, when you deploy at the beginning of the game you have to choose whether you're "blobbed up" or not. If you merge 3 10-man squads into one squad, then, yep, it's 1 kill point instead of three.

RussWakelin wrote:- The definition of "characters" and kill points confuses me. In the kill point section it says you get kill points for each squad and any characters in the squad. In the character section of the book, it defines two kinds of characters, "independent" characters and "upgraded" characters in squads like veteran sgts. This seems to imply that a vt sgt is just as much a character as a Force Commander. So...

You only get kill points for independent characters, no squad upgrades. Consequently:

RussWakelin wrote:- An independant character with a retenue is worth 2 kill points right? 1 for the character, and 1 for the retenue.

Nope - only 1 KP for the IC and the retinue together. The only time that an IC and the squad that he's with is worth only 1 KP - because the squad was bought with him. If he was purchased separately and then attached to a squad that would be 2 KP. But an IC with a retinue is only 1 KP.

RussWakelin wrote:- Is a vt Sgt worth a kill point? If so, then a marine squad with a vt sgt is 2 kill points?

Nope, Vet Sgts are not ICs, so squads with Vet Sgts are only worth 1 KP.

RussWakelin wrote:- Commisars are squad upgrades now, like vt sgts. So would an IG squad with a vt sgt and a commisar be worth 3 kill points?

Again, as Commissars are squad upgrades, they are not ICs and thus not a KP on their own. So an IG squad with Commissar and Vet Sgt is only 1 KP.

RussWakelin wrote:- Is the IG platoon minimum 1? I'm not clear on that system any more. Do you HAVE to take an IG platoon? Can you have more than one platoon?

Nope, no IG platoon minimum of 1. Hell, there's not even a requirement to take a Company Command Squad anymore! You could have the army led by a Lord Commissar or a Primaris Psyker. You don't have to take an IG platoon, but you can take more than one platoon.

Hey Russ, long time, no see. Good to see you getting back into the game. And with a MAN's army!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:- An independant character with a retenue is worth 2 kill points right? 1 for the character, and 1 for the retenue.

Nope - only 1 KP for the IC and the retinue together. The only time that an IC and the squad that he's with is worth only 1 KP - because the squad was bought with him. If he was purchased separately and then attached to a squad that would be 2 KP. But an IC with a retinue is only 1 KP.

Pretty good answers except for this one. An IC with a Retinue is specifically mentioned in the Annihilation rules as being worth 2 KP. Page 91:

ANNIHILATION
"If a character has a retinue, the character and his
unit are worth 1 kill point each."

Course, I'm of the opinion that IG actually do quite well in KP games, even with the old codex. Sure, we give up more, but for us old-school SAFH armies, it's the best scenario out there.

don_mondo wrote:Pretty good answers except for this one. An IC with a Retinue is specifically mentioned in the Annihilation rules as being worth 2 KP. Page 91:

ANNIHILATION
"If a character has a retinue, the character and his
unit are worth 1 kill point each."

Course, I'm of the opinion that IG actually do quite well in KP games, even with the old codex. Sure, we give up more, but for us old-school SAFH armies, it's the best scenario out there.

The wording of this rule is where the problems might start. It doesn't say IC, it says Character. Now the "Character" section defines upgrades like vt Sgts as Characters also.

So the real questionis, what is a retinue? Is this defined anywhere as a "squad that comes with and IC"? Otherwise I think one could argue, via RAW, that anything that is a character is worth a kill point per character + 1 for the unit.

A retinue is a unit bought for a character that the character cannot leave.

A Character (independent or not) that is bought for a Squad, does not count as having a retinue (E.g: Sister Superior for a Battle Sister Squad) but a Character who has the unit bought for them (E.g: A Wolf Lord buying a Wolf Guard Bodyguard) does count as having a retinue.

Gwar! wrote:A retinue is a unit bought for a character that the character cannot leave.

That's a great definition Gwar. Is it in the rulebook? That's really what I'm looking for. Where in the book is retinue defined. I can't seem to find it.

Page 48: Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game.

Note how the wording is a pretty specific "field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave" which doesn't include Units that have had a character bought for them.

Better yet, Russ, those Retinue rules on page 48, are enclosed in a box labelled "IC joining and leaving units" or some such. Makes it pretty clear that retinues are indeed for ICs only and not for upgrade characters. And that only IC and retinue count as the two KP in Annihilation. Otherwise every upgrade character out there would give up a KP as they are all in a un it that they cannot leave.

Hey Russ, glad to hear you're looking to maybe give the Guard another go. Since 5th edition came out I've still stubbornly played my guard in tournaments around the area and while I can't say I think the system is good (we actually don't even use it at my FLGS in most tournaments) I do think it is a scenario guard can win. Lumping squads will help somewhat as well as well as finally getting rid of silly KP's for officers, etc. However you should be aware that you're still going to be looking at around 12-16 KP's.

When I go into a KP mission I do so knowing that I will have to kill 2 KP's for every one I give up so as to stay ahead of the casualties I will undoubtably have once they reach my lines. Weighted flank and castling in corners also help to minimize the amount of the enemies that can reach assault range. In reality while I lose a lot of my KP based matches it generally is only by a narrow margin as I go into the game more agressivly. KP missions also have an advantage to shooting based armies because they can lay out more effective firelanes as they won't have to be advancing on objectives.

I know that the IG can have a steep learning curve but it shouldn't be to bad for you to get back into the swing of it. The Imperial Guard is a rewarding army to play because it's easy to win with an army of supermen, but it's a real challenge to do it with your average grunt. Hopefully I'll see the Roughnecks on the table again sometime.

-Corey

Heck, I've been winning KP missions all along, using my old codex 21 KP IG army. Sure, I lose some, but win more.

Thanks guys! Esp. for the page references. Very encouraging stuff. I'm looking forward to my first couple of new IG battles.

Now if I could just find my can of compressed air so I can blast the dust off my tanks...

RussWakelin wrote:Thanks guys! Esp. for the page references. Very encouraging stuff. I'm looking forward to my first couple of new IG battles.

Now if I could just find my can of compressed air so I can blast the dust off my tanks...

I actually had to hose mine down to get the caked and accumulated dust off them. Been running Infantry armies for way too long. But having fun with tanks the past couple weeks, especially the Executioners!

Doh - my bad. Sorry for the misinformation, Russ! I was going off of memory and I haven't played or played against any ICs with retinues in a while.

They're getting rarer on the table, new IG codex pretty much removes all IC/retinues from IG.