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When you can buy 2 Hydras for the same points?

Not to mention the Hydra's have a much longer range. Yes, the LR has better Armour, but the Hydras are able to utilise cover more easily, and are much more effective, and you can take 3 of them in a Squadron as Well, and Ignore those annoying cover saves.

It's cheap for hit allocation on a squadron so you try to save your better tanks?

AV 14 is wonderful.

I would rather have 3 chimeras for the same points. 9 str 6 shots instead of 4 str 7, troop capacity. Or a valkyrie with 2 heavy bolters, multilaser and rocket pods for cheaper.

Can the Valk sponsons even be used at a target in the front facing?

AV 14 can be a HUGE firemagnet and is scary :s , this could be used to draw fire away from more important men, such as valks or troops

Caprosmaster

I agree with Gwar (man that sounded weird). Hydras have a much longer range, and they're much better than Exterminators at killing skimmers and bikes.

Ayup. Its cheap. Where-as with the standard LRBT you get a large blast template with the stats of str 8 ap 3, you may not actually hit anything. The LRExt (Edit: Means Exterminator) basically guarrentees a couple of str 7 ap4 hits & if you use h.bolter sponsons then youve got a serious amount of AP4 anti-infantry every single turn.

Personally I prefer the eradicator with the same purpose. With the above mentioned randomness with blast templates I remedied by getting two!

Silly man, you get 5 Blasts with the eradicator (You Are running Plasma Sponsons I hope )

Gwar! wrote:Silly man, you get 5 Blasts with the eradicator (You Are running Plasma Sponsons I hope )

Silly

SILLY

SILLY??!

..ehehe, You said eradicator so your the silly one

But yes, im also getting an executioner (The tank you intended to mention) but I cant spare the 40pts to get the addition sponsons.

Errrm.. Shhhhh I dont have any rum in me!

Yes I meant Executioner, the eradicator is a horrible variant

When it comes to using exterminator , punisher suddenly seems very attractive ><

Sadly, it does. The problem with the Punisher is... ok Problems...

1) Range is too short to be effective.
2) Ap - means its useless agaonst vehicles
3) Ap - also hurts it against hoards.

The best use for a Punisher I feel is taking out a Monstrous Creature. Hey, it's got to fail SOME armour saves

I dunno D: i built one and starting to feel its out of place among the better AP Russes ( especially in squadron)
not sure if i should field 3 or just remove the metal gun completely.

according to math hammer, how many auto cannon does it equal? my math fails me , but i calculated just 3 i think.

Gwar! wrote:Errrm.. Shhhhh I dont have any rum in me!

Yes I meant Executioner, the eradicator is a horrible variant

Lies & slander.. its a brillaint anti-cover/infantry platform. Tough as adamantium nails, no minimum range, nice big old blast templatey (better than flamer template). Also str 6 is important for easy wounds on T4.

Yes but how many T4 Models have 4+ Armour saves?

The only use for it will be killing Pathfinders (Eldar and Tau) and Camo Cloak Scouts. it is far to situation IMO, whereas the Tried and Tested LRBT with its Massive range and Pieplate of "Kill anything that doesn't have the luck to be wearing Terminator Armour" is always useful.

Also cover saves makes exterminator even more useless >.>

Indeed. However, lets be honest with ourselves, the only reason it is in there is so that people could use the models without needing forge world rules (in what must be GW's one and only attempt EVER to give something back to vet gamers), and has actually boosted its effectiveness. Granted when COMPARED to the other options, it's a big steaming pile, but compared to the old rules it is much, much better.

Hmm. 2 Hydras is an average of about 0.56 MEQ equivalent kills a turn and the Exterminator averages about 1.56. I'm not sure that the Hydra's extra rules vs Bikes and Skimmers does more than even that out. Even with the better availablity of cover I think it's still a coin toss. The extra range is nice, but 36"+ on a standard 4x5 or 4x6 table is mostly lots of range, and really ther last foot of the Hydra's range doesn't even come into play.

If you know who you're playing when you write the list I can see the Hydra having a clear advantage (i.e. you know he's taking bikes or skimmers in quantity). In a tournament list I don't think they're that different though, value wise, since you could easily go 4 rounds and not get to use the Hydra's special rules, at which point the extra kill a turn from the Extecutioner makes a bigger difference.

The other caveat is that if the list you're running lacks punch against medium vehicles then the Hyrda is the clear winner.

I'd probably lean toward the Hyrda personally, but that's got a lot to do with what I'd put in a Guard list were I building one.

That was a touch rambling, sorry lads.

Fenris-77 wrote:Hmm. 2 Hydras is an average of about 0.56 MEQ equivalent kills a turn and the Exterminator averages about 1.56.

How does that work? They both fire the same strength shots, except 2 Hydras fire 8 Shots and an Exterminator Fires 4. even with the Exterminator Hull Heavy bolter, that cannot add up to ~200% more kills. If you are including Sponson, it is immediately an unfair comparison because the Exterminator then costs more points than the 2 Hydras.

Yeah, I realize the points are off by twenty. There's nothing you can add to the Hydra's for twenty points that so dramtically ups they're damage totals though. I suppose you could figure in two stubbers. That's one of the things in the LR's favour in general is the sponsons (and armour).

I don't think there's any point in comparing the tank without sponsons though, since pretty much no one should be taking it without. Some of the other variants perhaps, but not the exterminator.

In a case where you desperately need those 20 points to finish off a list then the Hydras are obviously the way to go.

Gwar! wrote:Yes but how many T4 Models have 4+ Armour saves?

The only use for it will be killing Pathfinders (Eldar and Tau) and Camo Cloak Scouts. it is far to situation IMO, whereas the Tried and Tested LRBT with its Massive range and Pieplate of "Kill anything that doesn't have the luck to be wearing Terminator Armour" is always useful.

What else can lay down easily wounding (2's or 3's) multiple hit shots from range that ignore cover entirely?

I skipped the unreliable single large blast at ap3 & bumped myself up to ap2 with multiple smaller blasts.

(Doesnt wtfkillsplat things.. also got a medusa too. I am a weeny bit worried about all this LOS maddness but, well.. outflanking valkyries can catch the hidey sneaky types)

Its not a steaming pile. It puts out a consistently reliable amount of str 7 ap 4 hits. Its comparable to the LRBT in terms of shooty, over a course of turns. Okay, I will conceed it does have a weaker target threshold.

I think comparing the Hydras to the Exterminator is a mistake.

Sure, if you are talking about just anti-skimmer and anti-light vehicle duty, then the Hydras Win.

But you can make those comparisons across the codex.

Why field a Leman Russ Demolisher when you can field multiple Medusa's? Why field the Nova cannon when you can field the Colussus?

I think this thread is hitting on a fundamental issue with how the Guard perceive their Heavy Support choices. Namely, do you take the cheaper and more effective at shooting Artillery or do you sacrifice some fire power for the heavier armored front line tank that can advance with your troops.

I think the most effective choice to be a combination of the two.

Now to the debate itself. I can still see a use for the Exterminator, but Leman Russes are not anything without their Sponsons. Thinking about a Leman RUss without it's sponsons is sacrificing the key advantage they got with relentless. The Exterminator is a creature killer as well as a transport popper. It has a high armor that will allow you to be a bit more aggressive with it, and if you take Plasma Sponsons you can really put on the hurt.

The Hydras are great, don't get me wrong and are quite competitive. But they suffer from all artillery weaknesses. Weaker armor, and players will never move them for fear of sacrificing whatever cover situation you gave them.

I play Marines, and I was able to blow off the Collossuses gun with Bolt Pistols from a Deep Striking Assault Squad. Once people start to wise up to dealing with artillery tanks, it is going to be much harder to protect them.

The Exterminator can pair with an Executioner as the ablative tank which hydras can not do.

Armor Value 14 makes the Exterminator harder to shake or kill then Armor Value 12 of a Hydra

To me this is like comparing apples and oranges! The executioners primary role in your army will be to target elite foot troops. It can do the job killing armor, but its ability to kill terminators, plague marines, and etc is its first job. The Hydras first job, on the other hand is to destroy light armor such as rhinos, skimmers and the like.

I take both squads, because they are wonderful at what they do!

As for the exterminator vs. 2 hydras - I prefer the 2 hydras. They are just frighteningly good to use, and I like the range from them more than anything else.

The new lumbering collosus rule changes how the exterminator is viewed. Before, you compared an autocannon and three heavy bolters to a single battle cannon, and even then nearly always picked the battle cannon.

Now, you're comparing the double autocannon straight up with the battle cannon (arguable a middling choice as is in the new codex), and for 40pts more you replace two autocannons with three plasma cannons. It's a harder sell now, except as a bodyguard.

I don't know why, when the basic russ got notably better compared to the Exterminator, they made them the same price. Sure, doubling the shots on the autocannon is nice, But the exterminator should still be 150-160 with sponsons, not 150 base.

Anyway, like others have said, I'm not sure a direct comparison to hydras is the best thing. The AV14 makes the LRE much, much more survivable than the hydra, as does the AV13 sides. I'm just leery about my fire support being on such fragile platforms.