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Lately, I've been pondering the idea of Ratling Snipers. They're cheap, money-and-point-wise, come in blisters of 5x, have infiltrate, and stealth all included. They're easy point soakers, no longer require a doctrine choice, easily fill up un-used Elite slots (yes, I realize psyker battle squads are better elite choices, but my FLGS doesn't have any psykers in, and whenever they order them, as soon as they're received they're gone.)

I think that in the 5th ed 'dex, Ratlings are now a fairly viable choice. On the maps that I play, alot of the good infiltration spots are multi-level buildings, which are perfect vantage points for snipers of any kind. hit on 3's, wound on 4's(MC nightmare), insta-pwn on 6's(another MC nightmare) for virtually 10 pts a model is fairly worth it. A squad of 10 ratling snipers could very well possibly take out, in a single shooting phase, a 5 wound MC(such as a godfex, which my friend frequently deploys to the point it's not even funny) assuming you roll enough 6's (no saves) unless you Mathhammer it, then it's virtually pointless to attempt on a fex that saves on 2+ but if I am correct, ratlings can lay down Pinning.

Just a thought to stimulate SOME ideas, without the biased "get that thought out of your head" opinions.

I remember when I used to LOVE using anything sniper. My scouts in DA, rats in Imp guard, Vindicare Assassin, all fun because Im a long range kinda guy.

But then something started happening. They where not killing ANYTHING. They would shoot, half would hit on a 3+, then half of that would wound on a +4, then the targets would save...even orks.

To me, I have a bitter taste in my mouth over snipers in general due to the lack of usefulness. The best Iv been able to do with the new rats in the new codex is draw some nids into the sights of my tanks.

So as bait, they work great.

If you want snipers, they are still your best option.

Just keep them near a CCS, if they get shot at, go to ground, then GBitF! in your next turn. Should keep them alive a bit longer.

Alright, I guess I'll be patient for some psykers then. Thanks for reply I guess if they had a higher BS or re-rolls they'd be slightly more worth it.

EDIT: @BoxANT, but if I infiltrate them in a building... or a building on my side, within 24" of Creed. it would still place them decently in the middle perhaps.... I dunno. I might buy them just to try them out.

Outside of the fact that I think sniper fire is underwhelming in 40k... the only thing that concerns me about them is their leadership 6.

I know it isn't easy to kill guys with 3+ cover, but with their statline, it isn't really hard either. You'll only have a 42% chance to stay put after a test.

If you are ok with that, they certainly are not overcosted or anything, so go for it.

I'm pretty sure Sniper Rifles are AP6, so Orks shouldn't get a save.

Ratlings have, to my knowledge, the highest Sniper/Point ratio in the game. 10 shots nets 6-7 hits/turn. You can expect 1 to rend, and 2 more to wound normally. Call it 1.5 wounds against a 3+ save model. This stacks up pretty closely to Lascannon HW squads in kill output vs. Monstrous Creatures, but is much more survivable, albeit not troops.

Against light troops, heavy bolters are better, getting 3 wounds against T4, although the effectiveness if these wounds are, of course, more dependent on save than snipers are.

Infiltrate and Stealth are two great abilities also.

BS4 @ 10pts snipers are not bad right there.. with stealth & infiltrate mandatory.. they are good sniper units.

I think you should only ever field 5man sniper units which will evaporate under any kind of fire (unless it gets a 2+ cover save - which ratlings have the potentail for & this should discourage offense against such a small unit) so thier T2 & LD6 is kinda irrelevant.

Edit: But not having a 2+ cover outright while being able to fire isnt so cool. Ive had a 5man pathfinder squad absorb 2 10man fire warrior squads pulse rifle fire without taking a wound, its easy to roll well with a 2+.. With a 3+ cover not so much. Its good, its just not as great as these guys need it to be.

Shep wrote:Outside of the fact that I think sniper fire is underwhelming in 40k... the only thing that concerns me about them is their leadership 6.

I know it isn't easy to kill guys with 3+ cover, but with their statline, it isn't really hard either. You'll only have a 42% chance to stay put after a test.

If you are ok with that, they certainly are not overcosted or anything, so go for it.

You always have the option of going to ground to avoid taking a panic test for casualties. This decision has to be made before saves, of course, but there's a few situations where it will be the obvious choice to keep your guys alive and not running.

and as BoxANT mentioned, if they're within ordering range they get GBitF! so that's pretty much a free 2+ cover not matter what if you maintain placement. and on the same note, if they move at all(since infiltrate says they can not be in enemy's LOS) you can just order them with Incoming! which is effectively like Go to Ground.

Well, with LD6 I'm not wasting any non-Kell boosted orders on ratlings.

they're cheap, they're readily available, they are good against some of the toughest units for IG (MCs), they synergize very well with Pysker Squads (with pinning), and they have decent range and stealth. I think they need to be involved in any serious discussion of infantry based heavy weapons.

They, along with Penal squads, rough riders, and Sentinels form the core of the "luxury" picks for the IG. These are all units that work well with the top shelf stuff, and bring something interesting to the table, but really aren't needed. They don't do anything so well or so uniquely that they are anything close to mandatory, but in no way hurt the overall army to be included.

Biophysic wrote:You always have the option of going to ground to avoid taking a panic test for casualties. This decision has to be made before saves, of course, but there's a few situations where it will be the obvious choice to keep your guys alive and not running.

You need to re-read the morale section. Going to ground and being pinned do not protect you from 25% morale tests. You still have to test, and if you fail, you have to unpin yourself and make for the table edge.

Shep wrote:

Biophysic wrote:You always have the option of going to ground to avoid taking a panic test for casualties. This decision has to be made before saves, of course, but there's a few situations where it will be the obvious choice to keep your guys alive and not running.

You need to re-read the morale section. Going to ground and being pinned do not protect you from 25% morale tests. You still have to test, and if you fail, you have to unpin yourself and make for the table edge.

Wow, that's something huge I must have missed. Thanks for the heads up. Going to ground might still help avoid 25%, however.

from what I would assume, GtG gives a +1 cover save, and I'm not sure but doens't Stealth do the same? I don't have my BRB so I can't check... but anyway, with the right placement, you can give the rats a 2+ cover save(probably not, I'm prolly not reading something right, but I know it's 3+ cover at the least) which will help some. but if they're not in cover, they're pretty much screwed :( T2 = insta-death by almost any enemy weaponry...

They are pretty worth it when they start putting wounds every turn on a Wraithlord, Hive Tyrant, or Greater daemon. You really need to take a full squad of them, though, to get value out of them.

Wildeyedjester wrote:They are pretty worth it when they start putting wounds every turn on a Wraithlord, Hive Tyrant, or Greater daemon. You really need to take a full squad of them, though, to get value out of them.

Infantry based lascannons (and plasma guns to a lesser extent) with orders in the form of 'Bring it down' - is jusy better.

With larger squads you amplify their failings, T2 & LD6, so I do still suggest sqauds of 3-5.

Yes, 'Bring it down' will work on ratling snipers, but your improving the stronger roll (3's to hit with BS4) which isnt as effective as improving bs3 high str, high ap infantry fired .lascannons. Plus those same lascannons are also effective at beating tanks where ratlings can hardly touch them.

Razerous wrote:

Wildeyedjester wrote:They are pretty worth it when they start putting wounds every turn on a Wraithlord, Hive Tyrant, or Greater daemon. You really need to take a full squad of them, though, to get value out of them.

Infantry based lascannons (and plasma guns to a lesser extent) with orders in the form of 'Bring it down' - is just better.

I would agree with this statement. But the question of comparing lascannon and ratlings had not been posed. I was offering up something that ratlings are decent at. I did not imply they were the best thing out there for downing MC's.

I've played a few games with my ratlings now (first model ones of course!) and they have done fairly well in every game. if the disporportionate amount of firepower my opponents have aimed at them is any indication, it looks like they can scare people at the very least. In that respect they much like my penal unit...a great distratcion from the meat of the army.

They have gotten back their points every time I've used them, but far and away their best moments so far have been when they managed to kill off one opponent's Ig company command unit and another when they killed a marine army's thunderfire cannon (the bane of an infantry based guard player's existance).

100 points well spent in my opinion.

TR

Use them with the psyker battle squad, they will keep things pinned all game. Well worth the points, IMO.

Plus, they are space hobbits. That is awesome.

I think they are worth the points. Rending is always nasty. Basically you get a cheap unit that can hurt something. Your opponent can't ignore them either unless they run a fully mechanized list.

G

Razerous wrote:

Wildeyedjester wrote:They are pretty worth it when they start putting wounds every turn on a Wraithlord, Hive Tyrant, or Greater daemon. You really need to take a full squad of them, though, to get value out of them.

Infantry based lascannons (and plasma guns to a lesser extent) with orders in the form of 'Bring it down' - is jusy better.

With larger squads you amplify their failings, T2 & LD6, so I do still suggest sqauds of 3-5.

Yes, 'Bring it down' will work on ratling snipers, but your improving the stronger roll (3's to hit with BS4) which isnt as effective as improving bs3 high str, high ap infantry fired .lascannons. Plus those same lascannons are also effective at beating tanks where ratlings can hardly touch them.

if you'll look on my recently posted 2k IG list(well, fairly recent) I have all my lascannons in vet squads, so BS4 lascan's, and by removing Kell from that list I can opt to have a full squad of Rat's and the choice to upgrade a Demolisher to a Punisher(I use the Demolisher as anti-infantry anyway, and pinning shots @ BS4w/Rending and possible BiD! + 32 shots @ BS4 w/Crack Shot if stationary) I think it would be worth a try, to see how it works.

and also, with larger Rat squads, you also increase the chances of hitting, and wounding. I roll better with more dice in my hand. 'tis why I enjoy the idea of my Punisher set up Rats are meant to pin down any non-fearless infantry squad(s) that I don't want getting in my face. pretty much. the more time I buy to shoot at my enemy, the better.

And to who mentioned Psykers; I don't have access to any as of yet :( it's a tragedy.

I agree, they are a cheap unit that causes pinning and some wounds on monstrous creatures, while giving your opponent a choice of either shooting them to get rid of them or shooting something more lethal or valuable such as your tanks or a scoring unit...

besides they require an opponent to waste shots with long range and lethal weaponry usually reserved for the previously mentioned... also you can screen your snipers with a large swath of troops... as most things have better than a 4+ save anyway and will most likely just keep their armor save... thus allowing you to have a 4+ or better save, making them a little more survivable and requires more firepower to be "wasted on them"

Reecius wrote:
Plus, they are space hobbits. That is awesome.

Indeed!

Space hobbits will always have a place in my heart.

For 100 points you get a unit that can lay down some pinning shots and if well placed can take some hits without dying.
A very viable choice IMO

I've been seriously considering a squad too and I really like the idea of them. My eldar snipers have always gotten their points back by shooting at a tyrant or hitting genestealers/terminators for the whole game. I really need something to help pin in my very small IG army and I feel like they might be worth it from reading this discussion.

I have a question though: Don't they get a 2+ bonus to their cover save? i.e. if they're being shot at when they're being screened they get a 2+. Also, in the last edition they were BS4. Are these two the same or has it changed in the new codex?

um, the only way I would think they get +2 to cover is their stealth rule pumped up with Go To Ground, giving a virtual 2+ cover save. they are still BS4, and for some reason my friend tells me they hit on 2's cuz they're snipers but I still think it's 3's(some one please clear this up for me)

So pretty much, here's how I would use Ratlings:
Put them up in a ruined building, or somewhere that would give them cover. They get infiltrate, so that makes that possible. If they move, and are in range for orders, order them with Incoming! otherwise hook them up with BiD!(if they don't move). and upon being fired at, which will happen frequently if the enemy is fairly smart, Go To Ground for free cover, then next shooting phase order them with Get Back in the Fight! which seems to be one of the best orders for Ratling Snipers and how they're set up.

So another thing I would do is, if you have Creed, keep them within 20" of him(to be safe) if you don't have Creed, keep them with 10" of a CCS/PCS. and if there's no cover available, place 6 of them behind regular guardsmen(automatic cover right there) or you can continuously use the GTG+GBitF! combo, which would prevent you from having TL shots on MC's/Vehicles. You could also combine them with FomT! if you know they'll get cover saves. Which will help, since if you place them in a building, the enemy will get cover saves I think? if you get cover, they get cover kinda? maybe not, not sure though. either way, FomT will still help, as 65% of the time, they will fail a re-rolled successful cover save.

I thought I remembered reading that they get their cover save improved by 2 (like lictors). Is that still the case or was that just in the old rules?

I'm glad they're BS4 still... And there's NOTHING in the current rule book about snipers getting special treatment. I remember that from days of yore, but not currently.

And is it just me, or do the 'orders' seem like the cheapest, cheesiest, gimmicky things ever? They can auto rally like space marines, twin link like every weapon like tyranids can, etc.

based on Ld, and you roll deuce 6's, you're screwed lol, it's cheesy, it's gimmicky, it makes people want to play guard again, that's prolly why GW created them. plus it makes since, y'know, considering human armies with tank and footmen soldiers and 'recon'-like units follow orders by a higher official. it gives the IG more fluff, really. and FRFSRF is one of my favorites to use in pure Lasgun platoons