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Ghaz wrote:
You're the one who's adding a piece in your head, not us. Once again, open the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook to page 87 and look at the Force Organization chart. See those boxes on the chart? What are they called? They're not 'slots' or 'choices'. They are called 'Force Organization chart selections' and the rules for the Techpriest Enginseer specifically states that he does not use any of them at all.

Could you point me towards the exact place that the phrase "Force Organization chart selections" is used? I'm having trouble finding it. The phrase I do see is "selection from that part of your army list." Now the next two sentences read as follows: "Dark boxes are compulsory selections." And: "As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two Troops selections."

If we assume that the GW writers can use proper english, there has been no indication that the use of the word "selection" has suddenly changed, so it still refers to a selection from that part of your army list. A mandatory unit selected from the HQ part of your army list says nothing about a mandatory number of spaces filled on a chart. It only refers to a number of a certain type of unit you must take.

In fact, if we look a little higher on the page, just under the section heading, we see this: "The minimum and maximum numbers of each of these types of each unit for each army are detailed on the force organization chart of each army Codex book." The FOC is not some magical place with slots or "selections" that you "use" or "use up" or "fill up" or whatever with your units. It is a visual aid to help in the building of a legal army. The rulebook says that "One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list." The chart itself is not mentioned again in the paragraph describing compulsory selections and nowhere does it say that the "compulsory selections" must take up spaces in the said chart.

Further, not to beat a dead horse, but an official GW FAQ, even if it is referring to a BT unit, supports this interpretation and conflicts with the one you're defending so personally. I really think that's fairly compelling.

Also, comments like "Completely wrong and totally unsupportable." are incredibly close-minded and not in the spirit of the game imho.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

Charlatan wrote:Also, comments like "Completely wrong and totally unsupportable." are incredibly close-minded and not in the spirit of the game imho.

I thought this forum was about the rules?

It is indeed, and obviously some of those rules are not always clear cut and easy to understand correctly. Otherwise we wouldn't need this forum. Going into any discussion with the mindset of "there's no possible way I could be wrong" only limits your potential to find the truth. Also, there's something to be said for common courtesy. Let's not try to use friendly debate as a disguise for what, in essence, seems to be teetering on the brink of becoming a flame war. I'd like to think we're all above that.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, you can't see the flaws in your own argument, so out of spite you ignore them. So tell us then, where does the word 'use' mean it's only being partially used? It does not. It doesn't matter if it's being 'used' or 'used up', only ONE SINGLE UNIT can 'use' a Force Oganization chart selection at a time. Not two, not three. No more than ONE. From page 87 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list.

So are you now going to say that 'one selection' actually means 'more than one'?

Not at all. But what you seem to be saying that if that one selection happens to be a unit that has it's own special rules saying it doesn't contribute to your maximum then it suddenly is not a selection. Where does "one selection" become "one selection that counts towards your total?"

Ghaz wrote:And where does any unit say that it doesn't contribute to the maximum but still uses a Force Organization chart selection? Try using the wording in the actual rules instead of making up your own. A unit that says it does not use up any Force Organization chart selections doesn't use up a selection. How hard is that to understand? Why are you trying to insist that a unit that does not use up a Force Organization chart selection actually does use up a Force Organization chart selection?

I'm not sure you get what I'm trying to say here. I'm not trying to argue that it does use up a "Force Organization chart selection." It obviously doesn't. I'm just saying that in the 5th ed core rule book, the term "Force Organization chart selection" is not used. What it says is that a black box shown on the force organization slot indicates a required selection. "Selection" used at the beginning of that same paragraph refers to a selection "that part of your army list." So a black HQ box on the force organization chart indicates one mandatory selection from the HQ part of that army list. That is it. The rules don't say anything disallowing units from fulfilling that requirement because they don't use up a space on the force organization chart.

I'm not saying your interpretation doesn't make sense, it does. But there is no specific RAW evidence to support it. It confuses me that you can't seem to see that my interpretation makes sense as well, even if you happen to think it's wrong.

This is where the Black Templar's FAQ comes into play. The rule about the EC states that because he is an HQ he fulfills the requirement despite the fact that he does not use (or use up or whatever) a space on the FOC. This conflicts with your interpretation, but doesn't conflict with the one I've laid out here. In a gray area, this tips the argument in my favor.

And Ghaz, I know I'm the new guy on these forums and you've been around a while, but if you want to get my respect back, here's what to do. Be level headed enough to take someone else's argument seriously. If you're still positive you're right, awesome, continue trying to change my mind. Because if it turns out you are right I sure don't want to just be happy in my ignorance, I want to know I'm wrong. But do it by bringing in new facts that haven't been addressed, and do it with courtesy and class. If there are real flaws in my argument, explain them. Don't take an angry approach and accuse me of "making up my own wording" when every quote I've used has been word-for-word out of the 5th edition book. This forum is for grown-up debate, not childish argument. Discern the difference and take the higher road.

Ghaz wrote:Yes, 'Force Organization chart selection' is the ONLY term used. Please actually read the rules. They've been posted enough times in this thread already but here it is one more time:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list. Dark boxes are compulsory selections. As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two Troops selections. These compulsory choices ensure that whatever else you select, your force will have a core within it that is representative of that army. This is rarely a disadvantage and many players often use the maximum number of Troops selections.

The Force Organization chart consist of nothing other than various types of Force Organization chart selections. Trying to make up your own terninology does not change that.

Okay... am I going crazy here? Thank you for bolding every use of the word selection. Now where is the phrase "Force Organization chart selection" used? You keep using it, and just said it is the ONLY term used but I don't see it anywhere in the paragraph you just cited. I'm not making up any of my own terminology. I'm only working with the terminology that is there, which tells me to make a selection from the HQ section of my army. If what I select, (aka, a selection) happens to have the text "this unit does not count against your HQ allowance" what is it that suddenly makes it no longer a selection?

"Does not count against your HQ allowance" is what's used in the 5th ed. marines codex when describing units that don't take up an HQ choice. I don't play IG so I don't own their codex and would rather not pirate it. I'm assuming that the IG codex uses your "force organization chart selections" phrase? If that's the case I understand your point a little better. Still, the BT FAQ makes me wonder if this is really what is intended or if it's a misconception, because again, I am more inclined to believe that GW's rules do not conflict than that they do. If you happen to own the IG codex and could cite the exact phrasing I'd appreciate it. Does it say it doesn't count as a selection? Doesn't contribute to your total selections? Or anything else to explain whether it's treated as a valid HQ choice?

In any case... I think it's about time this thread dies. I believe you and I are the only one's left arguing and I don't even play IG... That and I think we're both in danger of taking this more personally than we ought to.

So if the precise wording in the guard dex changes my mind I'll concede the point and if not than we'll let it die. Sound like a plan?

Kaaihn wrote:

Ghaz wrote:And where exactly do you think these selections are coming from? They're coming from the Force Organization chart, hence they're 'Force Organization chart selections'.

A selection comes from your army list, not the force org chart. The force org chart just tells what the minimum and maximum number of selections you must make from your army list are to be a legal army.

Force org chart says you must make one HQ selection from your army list.

Anything that is an HQ selection fulfills that requirement. Unless you are arguing that a Techpriest is not an HQ selection from your army list, by taking it you have met the requirement as detailed exactly in the rulebook.

Ah, I stand corrected. Other people are still arguing this. Well in about ten minutes craig ferguson ends and I'm going to bed...

odinsspear45 wrote:

Ghaz wrote:And where exactly do you think these selections are coming from? They're coming from the Force Organization chart, hence they're 'Force Organization chart selections'. Why do they use the term 'HQ selection' and 'Troops selection' if that's not what they are, selections? What are the dark boxes on the Force Organization chart? They're compulsory selections, that's what they are. So once again, you're not working with the terminology in the rules. Where do they ever once say anything about 'allowances'? They don't. Both the codex and the rules clearly talk about 'selections'. Your 'what ifs' don't change what the rules clearly state. Every single box on the chart is a 'Force Organization chart slection'. No other term is ever used in the rules.

Oh i get it now. you are of the opinion the units don't exist at all! Or perhaps that they are not HQ units?

IG codex Pg 93 Priests do not use up any force organization chart selections, but are otherwise treated as separate HQ units."

But they are treated as HQ units. In fact other then not "using up" any force org chart selections they are seperate hq units.

So they are HQ units
They do not "use up" force org chart selections

"One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list. Dark boxes are compulsory selections. As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two Troops selections. These compulsory choices ensure that whatever else you select, your force will have a core within it that is representative of that army. This is rarely a disadvantage and many players often use the maximum number of Troops selections."

So where is it located? The HQ section of my army list. I select them and pay points for them to be in my army. Fortunately for me they do not "use up" any HQ slots meaning i get to buy up to two more HQ selections that may or may not "use up" force org chart selection based upon what i buy.

So explain your point ghaz?"

(sorry finally got home from work)

I'm pretty sure Ghaz's point is that when GW says it doesn't use up a selection what they mean is that it is not a selection. This is a very reasonable and valid point. I happen to agree with you in thinking that what it means is that the selection is simply not used up, as it would be with a normal unit. Like you said, it forces you to take one and you do. In the case of a special few that one does not use up the slot. Hooray, you still have room for two. However, whether it makes the slot go away or not it was still taken, thereby fulfilling the requirement.

As much as I feel the second one makes more sense, both interpretations are founded on sound thinking and looking back on this thread I doubt anyone is going to change anyone else's mind.

I officially exit this thread.

Peace.


Edit: Thanks for the page number and quote OS, they shed some light.