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Do the Black Templars use the Machine Spirit as described in their codex which has yet to update(BS2) or the new BS4 from the space marine codex.

(I think they should have to use the codex one as it actually states p.29 of the BT codex "The machine spirit has a BS of 2." This question came up in a game by two of my friends.)

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:Do the Black Templars use the Machine Spirit as described in their codex which has yet to update(BS2) or the new BS4 from the space marine codex.

(I think they should have to use the codex one as it actually states p.29 of the BT codex "The machine spirit has a BS of 2." This question came up in a game by two of my friends.)

They have to use the one in their Codex. If they Play using "Codex: Ultramarines and Power Pals" Rules, they get that PotMS. If they play using the Codex: Black Templar rules, they use the Black Templar Rules.

End. Of. Discussion.

Anyone wanting otherwise is (in my opinion) a Cheater and a Bad Sport, but you can allow them if you want (GW being all wishy washy with their FAQ's as normal)

That was my thought too, and one more that came up. The command squad counts as a separate kill point and can't benefit from the Infantry Squad's combine squads even though the come onto the board together?

(I say it does count as a separate kill point cause the first sentence of Combined Squads, but thought I'd ask cause it involves both those players again.)

Edit:Clarification. This is from the new IG codex.

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:That was my thought too, and one more that came up. The command squad counts as a separate kill point and can't benefit from the Infantry Squad's combine squads even though the come onto the board together?

(I say it does count as a separate kill point cause the first sentence of Combined Squads, but thought I'd ask cause it involves both those players again.)

Edit:Clarification.

I assume you mean the new IG Platoons? No, the Platoon Command Squad Cannot Join up with the Infantry Squads. The Combined Squad rule applies only to "Infantry Squads" not "Squads of Infantry". As for Coming on from reserves, I would say they CAN combine when they come, the same way the Marines can Combat Squad, because the rules for reserves state you "Deploy" a unit when it comes on, and the decision for combining them is "made at Deployment", and since they all Deploy at the same time, I don't see why they could not.

Yep this was the way we were leaning but I wanted to ask on dakka cause we have you Gwar he who can find "Waldo" in every codex. Just wanted to make sure we didn't miss anything.

Off to work!

Really, gwar? As a guy who plays templars, I'm kinda on the fence about the Wargear updates. Why shouldn't BT's have access to the better PMS, and the other updated gear? Its not as if I'm getting to use any of the new special rules or characters. THAT would be rather cheap, like say having Vulkan He'Stan as my HQ when my Jump Squads and Bike Squads can have up to 3 meltas.
I guess I don't see the problem with going to the 'Ultramarines and Power Pals' dex for something as simple as what my stuff does, and keeping the BT Special Rules and Characters.

Why? Because you have many MANY other Special Rules that make up for it.

I don't claim my Grey Hunters should get the same Equipment as Tacticals do I? Should I say Blood Angels can use the same Rules as Nilla Marines?

You use the rules printed in your codex, unless you agree AS A HOUSERULE to play otherwise. Like any other change to rules you wish to make, really

They have specificlally stated codex > rulebook where they contradict: this gives DH an instant gib Force weapon but they lose rending assault cannons.

Yup. Codex > Other Codices/BGB. That's why they have a separate codex. Their rules are different than those of other spaz marines.

Besides, as a BT player you should be fielding 2-3 LRCs anyway, and you really want your PotMS. Your's still drives your tank w/o having to spend points on extra armor. Also, you still want your smoke...glancing only, not the silly 4+ save that SMurfs get.

If you and your group houserule it so that you get the gear in the SM dex, then you would have to give up some of your BT gear is is arguably better.

Trust me, I play DA, and while some SMurf gear is alot better, we still have to make do with what our codex lists. At least I can still make people cry "cheese" when I keep my DW Apoth in a a LRC, giving me a 6" bubble of "wound ignoring"...a LRC that can also pop smoke to only be glanced.

Which is exactly why you shouldn't try and make a mishmash. All it will result is in you taking the good of the DA codex with the good of the SM codex and making a horrible OP army list. There is a reason why they made the ALL TERMINATOR army only have 4++ in CC Storm shields, and it wasn't because they are Emo Cross-dressers

Gwar! wrote:

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:Do the Black Templars use the Machine Spirit as described in their codex which has yet to update(BS2) or the new BS4 from the space marine codex.

(I think they should have to use the codex one as it actually states p.29 of the BT codex "The machine spirit has a BS of 2." This question came up in a game by two of my friends.)

They have to use the one in their Codex. If they Play using "Codex: Ultramarines and Power Pals" Rules, they get that PotMS. If they play using the Codex: Black Templar rules, they use the Black Templar Rules.

End. Of. Discussion.

Anyone wanting otherwise is (in my opinion) a Cheater and a Bad Sport, but you can allow them if you want (GW being all wishy washy with their FAQ's as normal)

Just wow. Calm down buddy, you are not the be all end all around here. You don't get to end someone else's thread or thier discussion.

Certainly by the rules every army uses the rules for special abilities or gear found within their own dex, even if they share a name in another dex. While this is fine for tourny play to keep a consistent set of rules, there is no reason that a peice of wargear that has been updated in one dex cannot be used in a casual environment. Make sure to discuss it beforehand with your opponant and work it out.

The Watcher wrote:As a guy who plays templars, I'm kinda on the fence about the Wargear updates. Why shouldn't BT's have access to the better PMS, and the other updated gear?

Assault Squads get Storm Shields. Letting them have a 3+ invul for like 3 or 5 points is way under-pointed. Terminators get 2 heavy weapons, regular SM's don't.

The problem is the mixing and matching, the concern being you take all the good stuff and none of the bad.

Now, in friendly play, if the BT player took a 'reasonable' army, I would probably be okay with some of the wargear updates. But, BT can already build a powerful list, and letting them pick all the 'good' wargear updates just makes it even better.

Of course, in APOC, you could always 'buy' all your Land Raiders from the SM codex. But, it still wouldn't let you get a new storm shield.

Dracos, from a rules point of view, you cannot pretend the codexi are a salad bar. You're stuck using one (DH/WH/SW excluded in specific cases). You are of course free to house rule otherwise, but this is a rule discussions forum.

Dracos wrote:

Just wow. Calm down buddy, you are not the be all end all around here. You don't get to end someone else's thread or thier discussion.

Certainly by the rules every army uses the rules for special abilities or gear found within their own dex, even if they share a name in another dex. While this is fine for tourny play to keep a consistent set of rules, there is no reason that a peice of wargear that has been updated in one dex cannot be used in a casual environment. Make sure to discuss it beforehand with your opponant and work it out.

This was funny to me cause I posted wanting Gwar!'s response and I think this thread is done after Gwar!'s posts cause nothing new was said, it was just the correct answer repeated.

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Just wow. Calm down buddy, you are not the be all end all around here. You don't get to end someone else's thread or thier discussion.

Certainly by the rules every army uses the rules for special abilities or gear found within their own dex, even if they share a name in another dex. While this is fine for tourny play to keep a consistent set of rules, there is no reason that a peice of wargear that has been updated in one dex cannot be used in a casual environment. Make sure to discuss it beforehand with your opponant and work it out.

This was funny to me cause I posted wanting Gwar!'s response and I think this thread is done after Gwar!'s posts cause nothing new was said, it was just the correct answer repeated.

Glad to see some people still appreciate concise answers that don't "beat around the bush" to use the turn of Phrase.

Dracos wrote:Just wow. Calm down buddy, you are not the be all end all around here. You don't get to end someone else's thread or thier discussion.

Certainly by the rules every army uses the rules for special abilities or gear found within their own dex, even if they share a name in another dex. While this is fine for tourny play to keep a consistent set of rules, there is no reason that a peice of wargear that has been updated in one dex cannot be used in a casual environment. Make sure to discuss it beforehand with your opponant and work it out.

Ah, so in the rules forum giving the unequivocably, can't be argued over actual rules shouldnt be enough to end the thread. Then you go on to say that you should feel free to house rule it, which isnt a GW rule and thus not really what the forum is for.

While he is very brusque all the time, sometimes going a little far, Gwar! is utterly correct - simply use the ruels you have printed in your codex (+errata, etc) unless you wish to houserule it. That is the only correct answer.

The only thing I was implying was that the samew piece of war gear for different armies in the same faction (and yes, TECHNICALLY fluffwise, the Ultrasmurfs! Blood Angels and Black Templars are homies under the banner of the Imperium). I sure as hell am not saying that specialist Marine chapters should get Combat Tactics and Combat Squads, and other cool special rules that niller Marines get. They have their own Special Rules. They don't need any more.
All I'm saying is that if PMS (Power of the Machine Spirit for those who are bad with abbreviations)or any piece of gear works one way, it should work ONE WAY, universally: niller Marines, BT, BA, and yes, Gray Knights.
Admittedly, I hav ent got the new dex, I'm poor and what little I do stuff into GW's piggy bank goes toword models and paints and such. And I agree that a unit of 10 Assault Marines with 3+ invuln saves ALL THE TIME is pretty broke, especially for the points listed.
But it seems pretty silly that I have to explain, on occasaion, to people who don't play marines that due to not using the power smurfs dex, my something or another works in a slightly different way. Simply stating that wargear should work the same way, period. I reiterate for those who imagine I'm typing in Swahili.
So, I shall post this now and wait for the Gwarites to flame the living crap out of me.

That is just how GW makes there SM codexes. My DA force has different smoke launchers than my Salamander army.