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With being able to outflank completely with almost each squad of imperial guard ; what do you think would be valid tactics for building armies around this?


Creed + HQ (transport Valkyrie

HQ + Astropath

Elites

Marbo

Pskyer Battle squad w/ Chimara

Psyker Battlesquad w/ Chimera


Troops

PHQ w/ Al Rahim w/ Chimera

Infantry w/ Chimera

Infantry w/ Chimera

Veteran squad w/ Harker

Veteran Squad

Fast Attack
Valkyrie x3

Hellhound melta x2 recieves scout

H. Support

Leman Russ x 2 basic

Griffon x 3


Basically with +2 to the reserve roll and the ability to reroll your outflank including the ability to move on from the board edge do you feel it is a viable tactic to just leave your Leman Russes in reserve.

Regardless of set up your opponent is going to set up first; you will be able outflank and attack objectives; Marbo is just a cool guy.


I think people see what happens; with 2 psychic squads in Transports coming in from reserve you have a very good chance of getting both on the second turn.


The main thing I see a problem wth imperial guard is that they do not have a lot of staying power period, they need to hit hard and devastate the army in one turn through massive volume of fire power.

With two HQ and Veteran squads along with Troops able to hold and take objectives in a ttransport I feel this is pretty much the definition of ARmoured Rush.


Creeds ability to give Hellhounds scout is incredible which can deal with Armour add in H Flamers and STR4 ordane Blast templates you have something that can deal with most armies.


My point is tht with being able to move and fire a battlecannon there is no reason not to keep them in reserve and then assault at once with both leman russes. They have 48 inch range and barring a spearhead type deployment are well able to devastate a unit with range.

Psychic is the same as their able to move on 12 and either fire their template weapon or reduce leadership.

Add in that you can put marbo in he middle of your opponents forces with a Demo charge and you have some nasty combinations.

...and if your opponent starts in reserve and comes in AFTER you? You're hosed!

It is too gimicky to really work effectively more than once, and even then, if you are forced to go first, your opponent will immedialtly see your plan and start in reserves as well...thus coming in after you.

Edlar pull this gimick off, because their tanks/transports are all fast vehicles, thus gaining a cover save if they have to come in first. Plus they tanks all either have energy fields or holofields andding to their resileincy.

IG needs to start with most of their guns on the table so that they can lay down the hurt fast. However, some outflanking units will be very helpfull to certain builds.

The thing you should consider is a list that adds +2 to your reserve rolls, but also hits the opponent for -2 to their reserve rolls.

Don't just help yourself, jack up the opponent at the same time.

umm..that only hurts him..like I pointed out.

The LAST thing you want, if you are plalying a reserves force...especially an outflanking reserves force...is for you opponent to come in after you. You want to come in after your opponent.

The reason full-reserves Mechdar lists work, and IG ones will have trouble is because of the difference in wording between the Autarch and the Master of the Fleet.

The Autarch MAY add one to your reserves roll, while the Master of the FLeet MUST add one to your reserves roll. So, the Eldar can choose not to add one to their reserves roll if their opponent starts in resrves too, while the IG with a Master are pretty much forced to hit the table first, thus taking away the advantage of reserves and outflank.

it doesnt because with needing a six on turn two etc.. your oppenent is goining to be coming in piecemeal against your army also 3 valkryies and 3 chimeras can block around 30 inches of board. Add in 2 more for the hellhounds thats just vehicles. this isnt counting the troops.

You could very easily block your opponent off the board and win without ever firing a shot.

If anything youwill be able to funnel your oppenent.

Additionally your oppenent may get lucky andget that seer council or he could get that guardian squad.

Hollismason wrote:it doesnt because with needing a six on turn two etc.. your oppenent is goining to be coming in piecemeal against your army also 3 valkryies and 3 chimeras can block around 30 inches of board. Add in 2 more for the hellhounds thats just vehicles. this isnt counting the troops.

You could very easily block your opponent off the board and win without ever firing a shot.

If anything youwill be able to funnel your oppenent.

Additionally your oppenent may get lucky andget that seer council or he could get that guardian squad.

Blocking the board does nothing against enemy skimmers (which fly over), Jump Infantry, Jetbikes, DSing units, or outfalnkers. Only a stupid player will be blocked off the board...

Also, if you are stupid enough to actaully give your opponent a-2 to his reserevs role, then you are pretty much forcing a large amount of his army to arrive turn 5, in force, and shoot the snot out of you. This only allows you 1 turn to fight back, or no turns if you had to go first and the games ends on turn 5...you just lost the game for yourself, and he had to do very little to win.

Like I said, it is gimicky..it will work once or twice...but will never be truly competitive against any competent opponenet.

Hollismason wrote:

You could very easily block your opponent off the board and win without ever firing a shot.

Unless you're fielding something like 9 Valkyries, this will probably never happen.

Hollismason wrote:it doesnt because with needing a six on turn two etc.. your oppenent is goining to be coming in piecemeal against your army.

This is great for another reason: It allows you to use guardsmen squads to outflank and set up with heavy weapons along with creed (whom has 4 orders/turn with a 24" command radius) to support them.

The tactic with outflanking entire armies will work with One hq company command squad ( with creed), al ra'hem leading a large core of infantry (like maxed infantry platoon of 5 sqauds, ideally moved into two squads possibly being supported by 2 commissars & perhaps a HWS or SWS & finally some outflanking valkyries.

This just leaves the options for leman russes.. as any other unit will be left behind & simply far too vunerable to fire.

the valkyrie hull is around 10 inches fwi;

Staying in reserve versus this army is not agood idea.


You keep mentioning them coming on in turn 5; uhyou still have3 turns they have to roll. You cannot choose to not roll for units. If at minmum just 1 squad or two squads move on and they are the perfect units their still only going to destroy one of your units.

First.. it doesn't matter how long the Valk is. Given that is is 5" off the table, your blocking trick won't work. Infantry can walk under it and still be 1" away from it's hull, as long as they stay 1" from its base. This means that if you try to block the edge with the Valk, infantry can just walk under it, then assault it.

Second..I "keep mentioning" turn 5? I mentioned it in one post...please re-read my posts, prior to making exaggerated claims.

Yes, you oppenent has to roll every turn, but the -2 only helps him not come in piecemeal, by forcing most of his stuff to come in during the late game. The -1 is a much better modifier for forcing piecemeal entry...do the math Your -1 setup is better than the -2 the was suggested, that is all that I was pointing out. Forcing a -2 only hurts guard against an army that is already designed to come in from reserves.

Go ahead and try it, as I really don't care. You posted and asked opnions, then refuse to listen anyone who disagrees with it being an awesome idea, as well refuse to even consider at the weaknesses that I pointed out. Good luck

Alerian wrote:The -1 is a much better modifier for forcing piecemeal entry

& it allows the use of a single company command squad for the use of regimenatal advisors - Although with such a large empathsis on outflanking a secondary cheaper company command squad may be required - Also this squad would be ideally placed to be transported in one of the valkyries, thinking about it.

Expanding on this point.. I think you actually need two company command squads to go all-out with this tactic.. the squad with two regimental advisors in (you'll need three in total, 2 astropaths & one officer of the fleet (Like I said before in a few threads, the -1 to reserves is useful but the ability to force a re-roll on board egdes is more important)) will be the vendetta transported unit, probably with only flamers for weapons.

The idea goes that as creed is mandatory & will be in a chimera, thats a big chunk of points right there so the minimal addition 30pts is good to keep the overall units cost down. The second astropath should go here. Once (any) a unit, this unit specifically, has arrived the astropath has (partially) serverd his purpose.
The second company command squad, with two advisors - one astro & one OotF - with four flamers will stay in the Vendetta style valkyrie for as long as possible (if not the entire game). Thiey are expensive already & will be extremely vunerable (for thier points) on foot. The vendetta will want to move slowly most of the game anyway to continue to fire three lascannons. While they can get out, they dont need to grav-drop near anything specifically (Unlike a melta vet squad).

I actually like the idea of leaving your H support long range off the board. I mean ultimately it makes your oppenent unable to set up against it and gives you the option to respond regardless.

Also, moving six and having a 48 range is pretty good.

it will protect tanks from deepstriking Sternguar with meltas somewhat.

Hollismason wrote:I actually like the idea of leaving your H support long range off the board. I mean ultimately it makes your oppenent unable to set up against it and gives you the option to respond regardless.

Also, moving six and having a 48 range is pretty good.

it will protect tanks from deepstriking Sternguar with meltas somewhat.

Now Ive suggested this before.. but the idea could work.. where you have creed, a standardish non outflanking army core with a few optional units that would do well outflanking (some leman russes, hellhound + varients, infantry, chimera vets etc) so you can pick & choose which units to outflank game on game. One game against orks, you may wanna outflank some hellhounds to come in & scorch his lootas or backfield Kannons. In another game vs necrons, you may wanna outflank your demolisher leman russ - to keep it safe from those damned heavy destroyers/gauss weaponary in general - to then outflank & obliterate necrons warriors. Etc etc.

In a full outflanking army.. a CCS in a chimera or on foot (camo,medic, whatever) is too weak/vunerable to be left alone whilst everything else outflanks (instead of outflanking itself) - so this just leaves space for the hardy leman russ, Plus creeds orders will be a massive boon to an outflanking amy, especially as he will be able to reach those outflanking penal legions charging in to boost them with 'Honour of cadia'

Do 2 masters of the fleet and astropaths stack?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Do 2 masters of the fleet and astropaths stack?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237994.page#688123