Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Me and my friend have been arguing over whether the Imperium is evil. Normally I wouldn't give a crap; in fact, I don't give a crap. But I thought I'd bring it to you people to end the argument once and for all, because I'm getting tired of it. So: Evil or not evil?

Why are there only two choices? I wouldn't pick either of those answers.

better?

The Imperium is the "Third Reich in Space"

So yea i would say they are evil.

How are they evil because they kill aliens that are constanlty trying to kill them

They are the least evil evil compared to the other evils. They are still evil, but by comparison I would say no.

The problem with this question is that it assumes the imperium is one group of individuals who all think and act the same way, but it's not. I wouldn't say your average guard regiment is evil. Like someone said, they're just killin aliens that are trying to kill them. There are probably "evil" guard regiments who virus bomb places or kill their own troops for fun, but they'd be the minority. The same can be said for the Inquisition, except it's the opposite, the average inquisitor is mean just for the sake of being mean, but even the bad one's are pretty damn efficient at keeping the Imperium Demon/Witch/Alien free.

A lesser of a high number of other evils.

They are ruled by a bunch of prats with a big rulebook without text about why you are supposed to do what they do (just like the mechanicus but politicaly). It is a society with the overall nononsens attitude of 'If there's a 1 in 10 chance this will harm us in the near or long future, get us rid of it. In a galaxy like that, who can blame the original creators, and who could blame the poor sods following after them lacking the basic knowledge of alternate ways? Evil, indeed, but in their chair, it really is to be expected.

If the Imperium was anything other than human you would consider their traits "evil"
the fact that they are the humans seems to make people think they are good guys.

But you asked purely from a Moral stand point and I answered as such, however if you asked me from a real politik approach I would answer the Imperium really dont have any alternative in their situation.

The fact that you added "morally" to that question means that structural and military constraints should be ignored and only a moral view point considered. Therefore the Imperium are evil.

-Crys- Not another "Is this evil" thread.

(I voted other BTW, since there is no Black and White answer.)

Well heres the answer:


*This 24 page document has been deleted by Imperial record keepers*

I hope that helps.


Ok but on a serious note,I voted other as they really stand somewhere in the middle ground.

The imperium operates much like the catholic church at the height of its power, ignorantly outlawing anything it doesnt understand for the sake of preserving itself from potential or non existant threats. Just like the church, the imperium slaughters outsiders and members alike with little to no consideration of actual guilt or danger.

what good have they done?

They're not evil, just misunderstood. Except the emperor, e's a very naughty boy, why else would he be in time out for so long.

It is a necessary evil.

Gwar! wrote:-Crys- Not another "Is this evil" thread.

(I voted other BTW, since there is no Black and White answer.)

I gotta agree and disagree with this.
I like is this evil thread because i for one find it interesting what others think what is good or evil. Also my local games workshop always has major battles between 'good' and 'evil' armies [the imperium is in good just to let you know].
But I do agree on the fact that it is not a black and white answer, it is a shade of grey.

I mean they do do evil things but the need to in order to survive. E.g. a commisar will exicute a member of his squad but it will 'inspire' the other members to do better and therefore saving their lives. Its not the best method, but we do crazy things in order to survive and it gets the job done, even if some die along the way the majority survive [thats democracy for ya ].

All of the races in 40K are evil to some extent althought none of them started off that way (except possibly daemons).

40K races from least to most evil:
Orks - they just have a laugh
Tau - not really evil just yet but they will be soon
Tyranids - just doing what they have to do to survive
Eldar - not evil as such but couldn't care less about anyone else
Imperium - Xenophobic war-mongers
C'tan/necrons - kill all humans
Dark Eldar - pretty damn evil
Chaos - also pretty damn evil

The Imperium doesn't do too well on that list.

(I'm a long-time imperial player if anyone was wondering)

Clthomps wrote:The Imperium is the "Third Reich in Space"

So yea i would say they are evil.

Well atleast this "third reich" lasted ten thousand years like the last one was supposed to be, and if old night is world war one, then the allied forces are choas, the jews are eldar and Horus is hitler, now it all makes sense.

combo wrote:If the Imperium was anything other than human you would consider their traits "evil"
the fact that they are the humans seems to make people think they are good guys.

But you asked purely from a Moral stand point and I answered as such, however if you asked me from a real politik approach I would answer the Imperium really dont have any alternative in their situation.

The fact that you added "morally" to that question means that structural and military constraints should be ignored and only a moral view point considered. Therefore the Imperium are evil.

Morals and morality exist to aid humanity, we preach morals because to not follow a set of morals leads to decay of the society those morals are designed to protect. In the presence of xenos, those morals are irelevant. It is a moral imperative of humanity to protect itself which includes being able to control our own destiny. As all other "races" in the 40k universe are out to kill or enslave humanity to their own will then humanity has a right to purge the xenos and the heretic from its midst. To not do so would ultimately result in the destruction of the species which would be an immoral act. To act against the survival of the whole for any reason has to be seen as immoral and so the converse has to be true, that acting in the interests of protecting the species, one is behaving in a moral fashion. Behaving in a moral fashion is not evil, evil is behaving in a way that threatens the safety of the species whether in part or in whole.

cadbren wrote:

combo wrote:If the Imperium was anything other than human you would consider their traits "evil"
the fact that they are the humans seems to make people think they are good guys.

But you asked purely from a Moral stand point and I answered as such, however if you asked me from a real politik approach I would answer the Imperium really dont have any alternative in their situation.

The fact that you added "morally" to that question means that structural and military constraints should be ignored and only a moral view point considered. Therefore the Imperium are evil.

Morals and morality exist to aid humanity, we preach morals because to not follow a set of morals leads to decay of the society those morals are designed to protect. In the presence of xenos, those morals are irelevant. It is a moral imperative of humanity to protect itself which includes being able to control our own destiny. As all other "races" in the 40k universe are out to kill or enslave humanity to their own will then humanity has a right to purge the xenos and the heretic from its midst. To not do so would ultimately result in the destruction of the species which would be an immoral act. To act against the survival of the whole for any reason has to be seen as immoral and so the converse has to be true, that acting in the interests of protecting the species, one is behaving in a moral fashion. Behaving in a moral fashion is not evil, evil is behaving in a way that threatens the safety of the species whether in part or in whole.

Replace "Humanity" and "Humans" with whatever Xenos you want and you have the way everyone except the Orks and Necrons think.

Neither as both terms are really just matters of perspective.

The average guardsmen isn't evil, nor are the Astartes. They are both just tools. Where the evil comes in, in my opinion, is the manner in which they do business, both internally and externally. Everything is executed (pun intended) with extreme prejudice and attitude. They keep their people ignorant and fear anything they do not understand. They do good by protecting lives (at least human lives as a whole) of Imperium citizenry, if only to perpetuate themselves (as does any race). They operate in a blind sort of "Bush" way of the ends justifying the means in everything they do. It may not be a black and white question but to the Imperium it is a black and white solution. They are the ultimate religious right wing conservatives. They are morally stagnant yet seem to continue in a paradox of anthropological science for the sake of a game.

They are like us, both evil and good. Just my thoughts.

I believe the Imperium is run in an evil manner though not all of the citizens are 'evil' per say. Democracy is scarce in practically all of the governments and Administratum. The Inquisition is totally brutal, ignorant and lacking in rules to be policed by other areas of the government or sometimes internally themselves. Most of the space marine chapters commit acts that go above and beyond the necessities of war. Education is feeble, locked up by transhumanist religious nuts who themselves have forgotten how to make half of their own equipment. Book burnings and historical record wipes to cover up rebellions that were successful. Persecutions of anything that isn't baseline human (psykers, mutants, and every xeno race). People turned into 'servitors' aka robots with human organic brains.

If that is how human kind turns out in the future, I am going to root for the tyranids to eat them.

Gwar wrote:Replace "Humanity" and "Humans" with whatever Xenos you want and you have the way everyone except the Orks and Necrons think.

Of course, I identify with the Imperium more and so consider them moral as they're serving "my" interests.

Tabris wrote:I believe the Imperium is run in an evil manner though not all of the citizens are 'evil' per say. Democracy is scarce in practically all of the governments and Administratum. The Inquisition is totally brutal, ignorant and lacking in rules to be policed by other areas of the government or sometimes internally themselves. Most of the space marine chapters commit acts that go above and beyond the necessities of war. Education is feeble, locked up by transhumanist religious nuts who themselves have forgotten how to make half of their own equipment. Book burnings and historical record wipes to cover up rebellions that were successful. Persecutions of anything that isn't baseline human (psykers, mutants, and every xeno race). People turned into 'servitors' aka robots with human organic brains.

If that is how human kind turns out in the future, I am going to root for the tyranids to eat them.

Democracy doesn't work in times of war. How is the hive mind any better when it keeps all the nids bound to its mind control, destroys whole swathes of nids simply because it's easier to grow more than transport them from one place to the next, creates organisms designed only to soak up bullets?

Some think that Inquisitors are a little harsh and that keeping so many people in the dark is so "evil", but I just don't think anybody (including me) understands the threats Humans face. Think about it: when we have a war, what's at stake? A city? At worst. a country? When Inquisitors and the Imperial government face threats and wars, what's at stake? Oh yea, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!!!! When you think about it that way, while the Imperial Government wouldn't be able to justify their actions if they were ruling the world we live in now, on the flip side, a modern, progressive government from today's world would doom our species and wouldn't last 10 years, much less 10,000. Just my opinion tho'.

once the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne the Imperium began to change. when the Emperor was still kicking ass, life was not too terrible, and the lives of Imperial citizens meant something. since then the High Lords of Terra have taken over Governorship of the Imperium and it has slipped into stagnation. Corruption and especially incompetance are present in all levels of leadership but the ones who know what they are doing are doing a reasonably good job (Solar Mararius, Ibram Guant, Warmaster Slaydo, etc.). The Imperium is effectively hamstrung by incompetence. the Imperium is not a pleasant place to live but look at what it has to deal with;besieged on all boarders by terrible enemies and facing many threats from within. the reason Imperial society is so harsh is because without the Emperor or the Imperium's very strict control, EVERYONE WOULD DIE. this is the price you pay for survival in the 41st millennium.

lol it appears augfubuoy and i share some ideas

not evil, Just stupid.

lol it appears that The Angry Commissar and I share some views...

and I want my post count to go up !

But seriously, Imperium ftw!

Really Warboss?

Explain.

augfubuoy wrote:Really Warboss?

Explain.

Cauze dey spendz too much time arguin 'ver ooz in charg cauze dey iz awl da sam' Size!