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They both say (if I recall) that they "cause instant death on a to-wound roll of 6 regardless of the targets toughness."

So the question is: if they cannot wound the target, due to its toughness being too high, do they still kill it?

Yes they do. Their special rule, overriding the normal "to wound" chart, means they cause instant death and therefore must have caused a wound to be inflicted.

You're thinking of ID's a Wraithlord?

Regardless of toughness means exactly that.
It doesn't matter that they normally can't hurt it (like up against a Wraithlord).
These weapons let them hurt (and kill if the unit isn't immune to ID) things they normally couldn't provided they get that 6 on the wound roll.

But, a lascannon causes ID to an Obliterator, but can still fail to wound (by rolling a 1).

Therefore, causing Instant Death does not equal causing a wound.

Errr, you can only cause Instant Death if you actually wound it. If you hit with a Lascannon but do not wound, you just haven't wounded.

Furthermore, just because something causes instant death it doesn't mean it causes a wound. For example, if the rule says "Causes instant Death on a 6 regardless of Toughness" but you cannot actually hurt it, even on a 6, it still suffers "Instant Death" and loses all its wounds (Unless it has Eternal Warrior as well, in which case Welcome to Screwedtown, Population: You)

Let me put it this way.

IG characters are (generally) S3, right?
Up against a Wraithlord in cc. It's T8.

He can hit it all he likes, but with his normal S, can't wound it (S3vT8). With these weapons (because of their special rules), after they hit, they can still roll to wound, and on a 6 (and ONLY a 6), they GET to wound it. If it can take a wound (and is not immune to ID) it can be killed by ID. If he rolls ANYTHING but a 6 on the wound roll, it's fine.

So for the actual rule for instant death, it says "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty."

In my mind, reading this means that the weapon must still cause a wound in order to kill its target outright.

willydstyle wrote:So for the actual rule for instant death, it says "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty."

In my mind, reading this means that the weapon must still cause a wound in order to kill its target outright.

The rules for instant death contain both a normal condition for meeting Instant Death ("If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater") and the actual effect of instant death ("it is killed outright and removed as a casualty").

There are some weapons, like a Wraithcannon, new Force Weapons, and the weapon you've quoted that ignore the usual permission and simply inflict the effect of instant death regardless of the Target's Toughness.

So while rolling a '6' may not normally wound the target, in this case the specific rules of the weapon inflict instant death which means the model: "is killed outright and removed as a casualty".

I guess that clears it up. If scummy prisoners can kill a wraithlord with broken toothbrushes and filed-down combs, then Al'Rahem can certainly decapitate one with his fancy sword!

like gwar observed though if the model had eternal warrior or some other way of ignoring instant death, you wouldn't even inflict a single wound on the model since it is simply "immune to the effects of instant death".

I want to dig this up again, because Al Rahem's power weapon has different wording than Khan's.

By the arguments presented thus far, Khan doesn't actually have to be able to wound his target if he rolls a 6 to wound, it still causes "instant death" and the model is removed from the table.

Al Rahem's power weapon simply says it causes "instant death." So by the reasoning given for Khan's power weapon, Al Rahem wouldn't actually have to roll to wound at all. I think that this is not actually the case.

If Khan's weapon said that on a six it automatically caused an Instant Death wound, then he could indeed kill a C'tan or wraithlord by rolling a six to wound, but I honestly think that in order to meet the criteria for ID you have to cause a wound first.

Either that or a guardsman automatically kills anything he hits with his sword.

What's the wording of Al Rahem's weapon?

Does it cause instant death on a successful hit or unsaved wound?

If it just says it causes Instant Death, how is that even qualified? what does it default to?

According to the previous posters reasoning on Khan's weapon, it just kills you, because Instant Death includes taking the wounds.

Al Rahem's weapons says this: "this is a power weapon that causes instant death."

Al Raheim's power is different than Khans. Basically Al Raheim's power says any wounds caused by him cause instant death. So no, he cannont wound or kill a T7 model.

@Kadun: that's what make sense to play it as, but it's not how it's written. It's not written in the codex: "Any model wounded by Al Rahem suffers instant death" it's worded "this is a power weapon that causes instant death."

In that case it would not work, as it does not state how it inflicts instant death. Otherwise on any roll it would inflict ID!

nosferatu1001 wrote:In that case it would not work, as it does not state how it inflicts instant death. Otherwise on any roll it would inflict ID!

You play with the rules you have, not the rules you wish you had

I honestly think that Al Rahem's power weapon is evidence that Khan's power weapon does not allow him to kill things that he cannot actually wound, but I guess others would disagree.

You have convinced me wildstyle.

Not that the rules say what you have indicated but that both of them are so badly written that (IMHO) we are compelled to play the absurdity card and just assume that GW meant to indicate that these effects occur when a model is wounded.

When you pointed out Al'Rahem's absolutely HORRIBLY written rule it made me realize that the RAW for Khan also would indicate that he would immediately inflict instant death on his opponent which even an invulnerable save would be unable to stop (as the instant death would occur immediately).

While this may be true by the RAW it is just too stupid for me to accept.

Either way I think both should be addressed via FAQ if GW ever decides to update those things.

I agree with you that the rule "inflicts instant death" would be read by a reasonable person as "inflicts the effects described in the instant death section of the 40k rule book" which as you said before already includes the assumption that a wound has been caused.

I also agree with you that the writers of the rule books we must use could do a better job, or they need "open" beta testing... or both.