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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




New York

Ok so I came to the following scenario yesterday while watching another Tyranid player play against a Tau player.

The tyranid player was using Gaunts with the Without Number rule and only had 2 synapse creatures left which were his Zoanthrope and a Winged Tyrant which both were located on the far left side of the table.

They were playing Seize Ground with 4 objectives and the Tau had an objective near the Tyranids board edge about 14" away from it, and the tyranid player had 1 objective as well again on his side of the board on the left which he had claimed with some gaunts.

Here's a lil drawing of what it looked like: (sorry i didn't get to take a pic my phone ran out of batteries)



So here's where the problem came up. The tyranid player as you can see re-spawned his 2nd unit of without number gaunts on the right side where there is NO synapse. The arriving from reserves rule allow him to do so as rules that force compulsory movement are ignored for arrival from reserves.

However he was intending to move them UP to the objective that the Fire Warriors were sitting on as well without taking the Instinctive Behavior test to move them that turn. Which I openly disagreed with and told him that he's not allowed to move them without taking the test.

He claimed that they don't need to take the test in the turn they come in because the test happens at the start of the movement phase and the arriving from reserves rule allows them to ignore this test thus they are free to move as if they had passed the test for the rest of the turn. Meaning they are also scoring units even without synapse.

This just didn't seem right at all to me, but he's a pretty good player and he's actually corrected me on some stuff regarding Tyranid rules that I was mistaken on recently

1. Lictors take dangerous terrain tests when deep striking.
2. Gaunts don't auto-rally the moment they enter synapse range.

So I do take his ideas into consideration and that's why I want to ask other Nid players and find out what's what. Perhaps i'm wrong again and I'd definetly take advantage of the ability to capture objectives when re-spawning from without number, so what do the rest of you say?

Is instinctive behavior really completely ignored the turn you arrive from reserves?

1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Yes, your friend is right. Since some part of the IB rules stop the unit from moving (even though it is a Voluntarily Part) the entire rule is ignored, so he can indeed move up his gaunts to wreck your Fire Warriors day.

It may be an Unintended effect of 4th ed codex + 5th ed rules, but them's the cakes.

That is of course if you count Gaunts moving on cause of reserve number as actually the same as moving on from reserves, but thats another sticky situation.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/05/08 17:17:12


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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






For his gaunts, he was correct. Moving on from a table edge ignores IB rules. I honestly dont see how he could have gotten within 3" if it was 14 inches away from the table edge by just moving on though.



Quote: Gwar - What Inquisitor said.
 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







InquisitorFabius wrote:For his gaunts, he was correct. Moving on from a table edge ignores IB rules. I honestly dont see how he could have gotten within 3" if it was 14 inches away from the table edge by just moving on though.
Gaunts have Fleet, so they could move 6", Run between 2" and 6" and then assault 6" to really mess up their day.

As the any Terminators Famous last words state: "Anything but a 1!"

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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




New York

No you guys don't understand the question issue maybe I explained it wrong so let me clarify.

The Instinctive Behavior rule is taken if you intend to move the gaunts FOR ANY REASON that TURN. not just the movement phase.

I know that the rule is ignored for ARRIVING from reserves. He can definetly come onto the board. But then he intended to RUN and possibly ASSAULT the fire warriors.

Both of which are considered movements. That is the problem. Since he'll be able to do both things without penalty if the IB rule is ignored alltogether for that TURN.

Ignoring it also keeps the gaunts acting 'as normal' and thus scoring units while outside of synapse which normally they wouldn't be able to do. So it's breaking 3 things that wouldn't have been possible under normal circumstances.

RUN
ASSAULT
(and in the case they win the battle and sweep the fire warriors)
OBJECTIVE CAPTURE

1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/08 17:32:10


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Stubborn Temple Guard






But neither running nor assaulting are part of the MOVEMENT phase.

Since they are allowed to move from reserves, this means they can ignore the IB roll, or more precisely, act as though they had passed it.

That is the key thing though. Once they can move, and it has been ruled the first turn they are not subject to IB, they can act normally as though passing the IB test for the first turn they come on.

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Enginseer with a Wrench





Salt Lake City, UT

Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

Here is your answer.
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord




New York

Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?


Actually the rule says and I quote because I have the codex infront of me

"if you want to move that brood that turn[u] for any reason, it must take a Ld at the start of its movement phase. if this test is failed the brood will fall back as if it had failed a morale check. If it is passed the brood may act as normal"

Keywords here are 'for any reason' this is not intended just to be about moving in the movement phase, does anyone else agree with Gwar! interpretation?

Further more let me open my rulebook and point out:

RUN: "In their shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6....running movement is not affected by difficult terrain.

ASSAULT: The maximum distance most units can move during an assault is 6". As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach it's target, then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored. Bear in mind that models may have to expend some of their movement to move around impassible terrain...


So i'd really like to know what part of RUN and ASSAULT do not involve moving? And how does the 'moving for any reason' not apply to this?

Mattlov wrote:But neither running nor assaulting are part of the MOVEMENT phase.

Since they are allowed to move from reserves, this means they can ignore the IB roll, or more precisely, act as though they had passed it.

That is the key thing though. Once they can move, and it has been ruled the first turn they are not subject to IB, they can act normally as though passing the IB test for the first turn they come on.


So here's a little scenario to consider.

A unit of gaunts is outside of synapse range about 3" away from an enemy unit. It is the tyranid player's turn. He wants to ASSAULT the enemy unit that is obviously within assault range.

What you are saying is that he doesnt need to take an IB test because assault is not movement by your definition.

Then what was the point of specifically pointing out 'moving for ANY reason' in the IB rule if it only involves moving in the movement phase? I've seen plenty other rules that affect the movement phase only and just say 'if the unit wishes to move do this and that'.

Perhaps i'm being 'too literal' here but it strikes me that even if you are 1" away from the enemy already at the start of the turn that you have to take the IB test and pass it if you want to assault them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/08 17:54:35


1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts 
   
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Salt Lake City, UT

Right, but since you make the test when the unit is not on the table, the rule is ignored. Period. It does not apply to that turn.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







KaloranSLC wrote:Right, but since you make the test when the unit is not on the table, the rule is ignored. Period. It does not apply to that turn.
This basically. You can only make the IB Ld test at the start of the movement Phase, so if you run in the Shooting Phase, how do you take the test at the "Start of it's movement phase"? You can't, and you don't.

And not to sound rude, but your tone is very much that of "sour grapes". You lost to Tyrands because your friend played by the rules. Why ask for clarification of a rule if you are going to dogmatically back up your own interpretation when challenged?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:10:21


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Salt Lake City, UT

Gwar! wrote:
KaloranSLC wrote:Right, but since you make the test when the unit is not on the table, the rule is ignored. Period. It does not apply to that turn.
This basically. You can only make the IB Ld test at the start of the movement Phase, so if you run in the Shooting Phase, how do you take the test at the "Start of it's movement phase"? You can't, and you don't.

And not to sound rude, but your tone is very much that of "sour grapes". You lost to Tyrands because your friend played by the rules. Why ask for clarification of a rule if you are going to dogmatically back up your own interpretation when challenged?

To be fair, it was something the OP observed rather than experienced as a player.
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord




New York

Gwar! wrote:
KaloranSLC wrote:Right, but since you make the test when the unit is not on the table, the rule is ignored. Period. It does not apply to that turn.
This basically. You can only make the IB Ld test at the start of the movement Phase, so if you run in the Shooting Phase, how do you take the test at the "Start of it's movement phase"? You can't, and you don't.

And not to sound rude, but your tone is very much that of "sour grapes". You lost to Tyrands because your friend played by the rules. Why ask for clarification of a rule if you are going to dogmatically back up your own interpretation when challenged?


Well not to sound rude but you are being an fool or just feigning ignorance because I play Tyranids and I mentioned this in my first post and I also mentioned that i was WATCHING a game between Tau and Tyranids. Where I saw the tyranid player pull this and I said 'wait a minute it's fine to come in from there but you still have to test if you want to do any further moves that TURN'

So why don't you actually read properly before you start being rude and launching accusations without basis?

And the reason why I counter-argue your points is because you guys are absolutely WRONG about running and assaulting not being 'movement' which I have proved and pointed out to all of you in detail. And you were using THAT argument as your counter-argument to my own question. Which did not make sense as I knew you were wrong to say that running and assaulting are not movement.

Thus for me to accept your interpretation, what you state must be FACTUAL and LEGAL. Otherwise I'm going to challenge it.

By the way BOTH arriving from reserves AND IB testing happens simultaneously as they both happen at the start/beginning of the movement phase. The reason WHY i interpreted different from you is because the arriving from reserves rule exempts units from compulsory movement for the purpose of arriving. And keep in mind that the rule says Arrival from Reserve MUST be done BEFORE anything else is moved. Thus i've always rolled for reserves and brought units from reserves/deep strike BEFORE i check to see who has to take an IB test.

And the key point is what i've pointed out that you need to roll at the start of the movement phase wether you just want to move, run OR assault. Any kind of movement is subject to that test. So you can NOT choose to not take the test and then try to assault in the same turn 'normally'. Which is why i brougth this up in the first place.

1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts 
   
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Salt Lake City, UT

@Akaiyou:
OK. I get your point about movement in general. However, since it is implied that you are of the school of thought that Without Number works based on Arriving from Reserves (of which I am, as well). There is a rule - I don't know the page number - that states that any special rule that would affect the way a unit moves when Arriving from Reserves (such as Slow and Purposeful, Crazed, etc.) is ignored the turn that unit comes into play. Since Instinctive Behaviour has an element that affects the way a unit moves, the whole rule is ignored the turn the unit comes into play.

I don't know how else to explain it.

::edit for smart::

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:33:41


 
   
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Akaiyou wrote:Thus for me to accept your interpretation, what you state must be FACTUAL and LEGAL. Otherwise I'm going to challenge it.

Ok, Firstly the bit about Running and Assaulting is what is called "A bit of a joke". Grow a Sense of Humour.

Secondly, if you want to be factual, lets be:

1) The rules for reserves say you ignore the entire rule (as in, ALL of it, just in case it was not clear enough) in the phase it applies.
2) The rule for IB says you take the Ld test at the start of the units movement phase.
3) Therefore, the IB rule only applies in the Movement Phase.
4) Therefore, you do not have to take IB in the Shooting or Assault Phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:30:32


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Dakka Veteran




Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?


Are you suggesting that hypothetically (a situation where a gaunt squad is subject to IB) and the owning player fails his LD roll. The gaunt squad in question can therefore run, and then assault (due to fleet) that same turn?

To put it simply, they can't. The rule states they can't move "for any reason". And we always have to be careful when reading GW rules. Often times they will use the dictionary term of a word instead of the game term of the word. In this case it is the word 'move'. The GW author in question literally meant 'moving' the model and not 'move' as applied to the movement phase.

To put things in perspective:

1) The IB is taken at the beginning of the movement phase. This is a mandatory roll.
2) pg. 94 RB "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives." (emphasis mine)
3) As part of rule reading/interpreting we 'have' to apply all rules together as long as they don't contradict, and if they do contradict you give priority to the specific rule over the general rule.

With this in mind, I do not believe these rules contradict. You can still roll for IB, and pass or fail are allowed to ignore that special rule for that phase in which it arrives (movement phase). But the rule could still be in effect for the other 2 phases of the same turn. Preventing the squad to run or assault and also prevent the squad from scoring if it is lurking instead.

This is how I read it. And both rules can be applied without either one contradicting the other.

However in retrospect we can just as easily interpret the RB rule as simply ignoring the IB rule altogether, and this can easily be a way to play it as well. But Because the RB mentions that it is only ignored in a single phase leads me to believe the 'unit's special rule' can still be applied to other phases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:43:30


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Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
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padixon wrote:
Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?


Are you suggesting that hypothetically (a situation where a gaunt squad is subject to IB) and the owning player fails his LD roll. The gaunt squad in question can therefore run, and then assault (due to fleet) that same turn?


If you would be so Kind as to read the rules for units that are falling back (since this is What Gaunts do when they fail the Ld Test for Instinctive Behaviour, providing they do not choose to Lurk), you will see that any unit that is falling back can indeed make a run move, but must run in the direction they are falling back (in this case towards the nearest Synapse Creature, or the board edge if none are available). However, they are not permitted to launch an assault, regardless of Fleet and such (Page 46, BRB).

Your failure of rules knowledge on such a basic level precludes me from bothering to read the rest of your post.

Good Day to you, Sir.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:47:58


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Gwar! wrote:
padixon wrote:
Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?


Are you suggesting that hypothetically (a situation where a gaunt squad is subject to IB) and the owning player fails his LD roll. The gaunt squad in question can therefore run, and then assault (due to fleet) that same turn?


If you would be so Kind as to read the rules for units that are falling back (since this is What Gaunts do when they fail the Ld Test for Instinctive Behaviour, providing they do not choose to Lurk), you will see that any unit that is falling back can indeed make a run move, but must run in the direction they are falling back (in this case towards the nearest Synapse Creature, or the board edge if none are available). However, they are not permitted to launch an assault, regardless of Fleet and such (Page 46, BRB).

Your failure of rules knowledge on such a basic level precludes me from bothering to read the rest of your post.

Good Day to you, Sir.


Gwar, stop trolling, you are clearly aiming for an insult or trying to incite one from me, and I will never stoop to your level.

With that said, please read the post you quoted again. I was referring the IB rule, which prevents the unit in question from moving 'voluntarily' and for 'any reason'.

Please try to read more carefully and I would be pleased if you can refrain from 'going off on a bender'.

With that said, the tyranid unit may still lurk and or fall back to a synapse critter. Either way, you can still apply both rules

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/08 18:56:09


DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
Ultras 3rd Co and 1st Co. 7000+ pts
Harald Deathwolf's Co. 7000+ pts
4000+ pts (Daemonhunters)
Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
Skullrippa'z Freebootaz 6000+ pts
Plague Marine Force 2000+ pts
and not finished until I own some of every army
 
   
Made in gb
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padixon wrote:With that said, the tyranid unit may still lurk and or fall back to a synapse critter. Either way, you can still apply both rules
The thing is, you ignore the whole rule during the movement phase you move onto the board, so can never take the Test. Once you are in the shooting phase, it is kind of Impossible to take the test "At the start of the Movement Phase" as that is well and truly gone, so the whole argument of needing to take it in the shooting and Assault Phase is moot.

Also, I apologise If I came off as "rude", I was in no way "aiming for an insult or trying to incite one" from you, I was just trying to be Candid and not "beat about the bush", so to speak. It seems I failed at that and for that I do truly apologise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/08 19:01:47


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Infiltrating Broodlord




New York

KaloranSLC wrote:@Akaiyou:
OK. I get your point about movement in general. However, since it is implied that you are of the school of thought that Without Number works based on Arriving from Reserves (of which I am, as well). There is a rule - I don't know the page number - that states that any special rule that would affect the way a unit moves when Arriving from Reserves (such as Slow and Purposeful, Crazed, etc.) is ignored the turn that unit comes into play. Since Instinctive Behaviour has an element that affects the way a unit moves, the whole rule is ignored the turn the unit comes into play.

I don't know how else to explain it.

::edit for smart::


- The arriving from reserves rule only exempts unit for the 'phase' not the turn. So im not disagreeing with you. The next person who posted interpreted things in the exact way that I did. Read his post.

padixon wrote:
Gwar! wrote:You can only "move" in the movement phase. You do not "move" in the shooting phase, you "Run". You do not "move" in the Assault Phase, you "assault".

IB only affects movement in the Moving phase, not in any other phase.

Also, the rules are actually prety explicit it is only for the movement phase. The rule states that if you want to moive them that turn, you take a Leadership test at the "Beginning of the movement phase".
Now, how in the Name of The Most Holy Golden Throne on Terra™ can you take a Ld Test at the beginning of the movement phase if you are running in the shooting phase?


Are you suggesting that hypothetically (a situation where a gaunt squad is subject to IB) and the owning player fails his LD roll. The gaunt squad in question can therefore run, and then assault (due to fleet) that same turn?

To put it simply, they can't. The rule states they can't move "for any reason". And we always have to be careful when reading GW rules. Often times they will use the dictionary term of a word instead of the game term of the word. In this case it is the word 'move'. The GW author in question literally meant 'moving' the model and not 'move' as applied to the movement phase.

To put things in perspective:

1) The IB is taken at the beginning of the movement phase. This is a mandatory roll.
2) pg. 94 RB "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives." (emphasis mine)
3) As part of rule reading/interpreting we 'have' to apply all rules together as long as they don't contradict, and if they do contradict you give priority to the specific rule over the general rule.

With this in mind, I do not believe these rules contradict. You can still roll for IB, and pass or fail are allowed to ignore that special rule for that phase in which it arrives (movement phase). But the rule could still be in effect for the other 2 phases of the same turn. Preventing the squad to run or assault and also prevent the squad from scoring if it is lurking instead.

This is how I read it. And both rules can be applied without either one contradicting the other.

However in retrospect we can just as easily interpret the RB rule as simply ignoring the IB rule altogether, and this can easily be a way to play it as well. But Because the RB mentions that it is only ignored in a single phase leads me to believe the 'unit's special rule' can still be applied to other phases.


- I agree 100% with your interpretation as this was my very own. But just like you said I also can see that it CAN be interpreted as the rule is completely ignored, which is why I was confused on the issue. By only ignoring the rule for the 'movement phase' i didn't think it contradicted the IB rule which affects the whole turn.

But hey this only benefits us as Tyranid players to be able to ignore IB for a turn. I just wanted a clear answer since i'd feel like i'd be cheating if I used something like this and it wasn't a legal move.

1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It doesn't matter, for two reasons.

If you ignore it for the phase, that means you don't have to roll. In fact, you *cant* roll, since rolling is the opposite of ignoring the rule. There is nothing in the rule about rolling is subsequent phases, nor do you check for IB in subsequent phases.

Second, the roll is only triggered if you can measure and show you are >12" away. Since you can't measure anything that is off of the board, it can't be determined to be >12" away.


It worked the same way in 4E rules.
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




Southern California

The IB rule states that you must take a Ld test if you plan on moving the squad. When you come of from reserves using the Without Number rule, you are unable to test for leadership, and are assumed to have past your leadership role for that turn.

I was faced with this exact same situation at a Rogue Trader Tournament, and they said as I was not on the table at the beginning of the movement phase, the reserve rule allowed me to move on as if I had passed my test. I was then able to run (rolling a 4) and assault a squad of Ork Boyz, who proceeded to mop the ground with me.

Afterward, it was explained to me that as the reserve rules did not require me to make a leadership test to move, and the only time you can take a Ld test for IB was the start of the movement phase, my gaunt squad counted as having passed it.

This is clearly a problem with 4th edition codex meets 5th edition rules. As the codex says you MUST take a Ld test at the start of the movement phase, and the reserve rules allow you to move on without having to take it. You are then not able to go back and take the test when it comes to the shooting phase and the assault phase, therefore they are considered to have already passed it for the purposes of that turn....I am sure the next codex will fix this issue....I hope.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/09 01:24:13


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Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





Wyoming

ok what about deep striking rules?

It says that you cant move when you arrive, but you can run. It seems to me that there is a clear dillineation between the movement phase and the shooting phase. I say running works in this and every situation.
   
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Praetorian




Gurilla, Coredump, and Gwar are all correct, IB checks are ignored for the turn they come on if they come on the board through reserves or w/o number.

You cannot check range for the possibility of the check, since they are not on the board
They move on the board up to 6" on the side of the board per reserves or w/o number rules.
After all of your units are moved, the Movement phase is over, the Shooting phase begins.
Any possibility of checking for range from a Synapse creature has passed, since you check at the beginning of the Movement phase, and you never go back after you have gone into the Shooting phase.
The brood never had to check for IB, therefore you can use your brood as normal, shoot or run in the Shooting phase, and assault in the Assault phase.

On the next Turn, you have to check the Synapse range for brood, if they are not in close combat or falling back at this point they may fall under the IB rules.

You cannot go back phases, it would be much like having your opponent assault you in the Assault phase, work out the results of said assault, and then go back to a unit he forgot to fire their weapons in the Shooting Phase and working out the shooting for that unit.
   
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


I agree that the IB test is ignored a turn the unit arrives from Reserves.


However I do want to point out the notion that running or assault movement is a "move" is false (and doesn't actually pertain to this argument). Both running and assaulting clearly say that these are "moves" in their rules, besides the fact that the models are in fact moving from one place to another.

But I digress, whether or not these things are "moves" or not is irrelevant to this argument.


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Arizona

You're trying to use something that existed in the past (the beginning of the movement phase) in a present where it no longer exists (shooting phase) and that just doesn't make any sense. They're completely seprate points in time. Is it a slip in the rules? Most likely yes. Do we have to deal with it anyway? Yes. There's wierd occurences like this in places other than the bug codex, but I'm straying from my point now...

Phases of the game are different points in time. You can't pull something from the past to use in the present anymoreso than we can as humans.

Past is past. Test can't be made so it's ignored. Stuff happens, update your record (if you track it) and move on. There's more important things to argue about.

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