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Hey guys!

The Disclaimer
First thing's first: You'll never see me field these kinds of lists at a club. These are strictly for tourney play where people expect to play against them. The intention behind these lists it to be as ugly, disgusting, and brutal as possible (basically all the things I hate about this hobby). So why do it? Classic response: "Because everyone else is..." (at a competitive tournament). Think of it as an arm's build up...

So before anyone starts bmoaning, I'd like to kindly remind them that these lists aren't intended for friendly play. I'll hardly ever use them because I don't really like tournaments. But when I do decide to go I'd like to give it my best from a list-build perspective.

Plea for help!
I'd like you guys to help me build this nasty list, it can be our own Frankenstein and since this thread is strictly BS let's not get too heated shall we?

The Math-hammer

(EDIT: These we're all stolen from Dakka and the 40k community at large; I apologize in advance. If you recognize something please let me know so I can insert the appropriate links and give credit)!

Effectiveness at killing AV 14 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/234631.page

Assumptions:
1. Target is not in cover (if you want to, you can just halve everything if you want to see what the numbers look like for targets in cover)
2. Target is AV14
3. Any melta weapons are within their half-range to maximize armor penetration
4. Where the “Bring it Down!” (BiD!) order has been factored into the calculation, the probability of that unit passing it’s Leadership roll has been included in the calculation.
5. The probability of a hit for blast templates was based the thought that you place the center of the marker in the center of the tank so that you hit with the scatter dice 1/3 of the time, plus the probability of deviating less than 2”. I’m assuming that if you deviate more than 2”, the center of the marker is off the vehicle and the strength of your blast is then halved and you won’t get a kill shot.

Results – Effectiveness

This is purely a gauge of what unit has the best chance of killing AV14, regardless of cost. The percentile next to the unit name is the probability of scoring a kill in a single round. Here are your anti-tank units ranked from most to least effective.

1. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox (114%)
2. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! (94%)
3. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox, Commissar (0.93%)
4. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox (88%)
5. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta (85%)
6. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! Commissar (79%)
7. Demolisher w/ MM Sponsons, KC Pask (75%)
8. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! (69%)
9. Veterans w/ 3 Melta (64%)
10. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta (64%)
11. Special Weapons Squad w/ 3 Melta (48%)
12. Demolisher w/ MM Sponsons (45%)
13. Storm Troopers w/ 2 Melta (42%)
14. Devil Dog w/ MM (35%)
15. Vanquisher w/ Lascannon, Pask (26%)
16. Devil Dog (19%)
17. Vanquisher w/ Lascannon (15%)
18. Vendetta (13%)
19. Heavy Weapon Squad w/ 3 Lascannon (8%)

Observations

- Melta weapons kill AV14 more reliably than anything else
- More meltas are better than less
- “Bring it Down!” works extremely well with meltas
- Voxes are more cost-effective than Commissars when it comes to making sure that leadership rolls for Orders are made
- Twin-linking lascannons – whether by “Bring it Down!” or as weapon on their own aren’t nearly as effective as meltas

Number of Lasgun shots needed to kill...

A single Space Marine: 1 failed save = 3 wounds = 9 hits = 18 shots
5 Space Marines: 18x5= 90 shots
A Single Ork: 1 failed save = 1.2 wounds = 3.6 hits = 7.2 shots.
10 Orkz: 72 shots
10 Dire Avengers 10 failed saves = 20 wounds = 40 hits = 80 shots
10 Guardians 10 failed saves = 15 wounds = 30 hits = 60 shots
A single Nob Ork Biker 1 failed FnP = 2 failed saves = 4 wounds = 24 hits = 48 shots.
A Single Carnifex (T6, 2+ save) 4 failed saves = 24 wounds = 144 hits = 288 shots (192 if you use "Bring it down"). Without the Extended Carapace you need only half the shots. Carnies with T7 are untouchable by lasguns, and with Reinforced Chitin they need 20% more shots to be taken down, so 345.6.

The List (Beta / WIP)

Unit / Quantity / Total Price

Command Squad 1 50
Regimental Standard 1 15
Master of Ordnance 1 30
Officer of the Fleet 1 30
Astropath 1 30
Chimera 1 55
Smoke Grenades 1 5

Command Squad 1 50
Regimental Standard 1 15
Master of Ordnance 1 30
Astropath 1 30
Chimera 1 55
Smoke Grenades 1 5

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Valkyries 3 300
Multiple Rocket Pods 3 90

Ratlings 30 30
Additional Ratlings 7 70

Rationale

Tanks are overrated. Every Space Marine player and their mom takes Vulkan which means every tactical squad has a twin-linked melta and multi-melta When you factor in lone landspeeders and Attack Bikes, the odds of my tanks surviving past Turn 2 are minimal. The only justification I can think of for taking them is their ability to kill lots of infantry (even marines -sans cover), but if they can't last past turn 2 there's no point. I need alternatives but I haven't found any past the humble infantry squad.

Melta weapons are the new 'uber-weapon' in Wh40k. They're the only weapon you can count on to '1-shot' vehicles. My platoon command squads will be held in reserve with the Valkyries for deep-strike / out-flank on Turn 2 (2 Astropath = Guaranteed Arrival).

The Valkyries themselves are all armed with Multiple Rocket Pods, which will help me deal with Orkz and other horde armies. I've also got two Master's of Ordnance who can each call down a Str. 9 large blast Ordnance barrage.

I've also got 6 Infantry Squads, which I plan on fielding as 3 combined squads of 20. The Commissars make them stubborn which will keep them on an objective or avoid a pinning test. Enemy assault's are inevitable, but I'm hoping I won't lose all three squads to assault before I have a chance to shoot stuff. If a squad does get assaulted, it's stubborn, has 20 wounds and 2 power weapons which will hopefully do something.

I'm tempted to take Straken, although a recent game suggests his killing potential is overrated, he gives Furious Charge and Counter-Attack to every unit within 24", which is disgusting in the right circumstances. Counter-Attack shouldn't be underestimated, it means your 'guard units always count as charging in the first round of combat!

Concerns:

Enemy Assaults, Fragility and a lack of killing power. Wh40k 5th edition is all about close combat, Turn 2 assaults are pretty much the norm. Imperial Guard are always going to have a problem with assaults and I can only think of 2 methods:

1) Write-off the assaulted unit, hope you have enough units left to wipe out the consolidating attacker.

2) Absorb the charge, wipe out the attacking unit.

Most people will go with Option 1, but I've found it takes way too much firepower to do this and sometimes you need to stay planted on an objective. Option #2 is an ideal, we'd all take it if we had the ability to do it but guardsmen aren't very good at it...

I've gone with a compromise, I figure 20 men with 2 power weapons (4 armor-ignoring attacks total) is enough to fight back against a reduced Tactical Squad or severely depleted Ork mob. If it gets wiped out, there's two other large infantry squads with lascannons and melta guns to retaliate. There's also the Valkyries (if they're still alive) and ordnance barrages.

So er, yeah... what do you guys think? The only thing I'm refusing to budge on is vehicles: So far I refuse to take them, they die way too easily to Vulkan and his Space Marines.

Hey guys, thanks for the quick responses and I appreciate your frankness! I'll do my best to respond to all comments in the order they were given:

...out of LOS artillery? A couple of griffons at least to add out of los turn 1 striking power. I always play 1 griffon and 1 or 2 colossi. And your countercharge is non existent. I run 2 8 horse RR squads offboard in reserve. They always win their points back.

I'll be honest, none of this sounds very realistic to me but maybe your gaming group plays differently. I haven't used Griffin's yet but their AP4 strikes me as being unfeasible against MEQs.

I agree with you about a lack of counter-charge, but I don't think Rough Riders fit the bill. My experience is that they always get shot up before they can do their job. If I hold them in reserve, they always arrive too early, only to be shot up. There's also the "1-shot" factor. So I wipe out a squad of Space Marines, then what? They're useless now.

Comissar lord with with ogryn, rough riders are you counter charge. Building your list to down av 14 only will leave your over gunned and under manned. Park your tanks in cover screen them with chimea, hiding behind something, then lumber them out when you have a clean shot.

I like Ogryns, but they lack power weapons or any ability to ignore enemy armor saves in close combat. The Commissar Lord strikes me as a cheap unit with a nice LD buff, but he's an independent character which means he can be targeted (and eliminated) separately in close combat. You actually have a valid point about tanks and cover, I'm still debating how to pull this off without sinking too many points.

I think you're going to get wrecked, not to put too fine a point on it.

This list is not excellent at long range shooting, short range shooting, or close combat. You've got a mixed bag of men on the field and you're relying on meltaguns to kill assault transports (which are already close enough to deliver their payload regardless of whether or not you've stopped it).

This is basically a 4th ed Guard list with meltaguns added in everywhere. You have a lot of scoring troops that are stubborn, which makes them more resilient to shooting, but in the assault is a severe detriment as it is likely they will not break after one phase, meaning you will not be able to shoot whatever has assaulted them.

This list cannot fight Shrike Terminators, Nob Bikers, Lash Chaos, Drop Pod Marines, Eldarzilla, or mechanised Guard. You say you're terrified of Vulkan marines, but you create large blob platoons that will be eaten alive by heavy flamers.

If you're going to create a Man-Spam list, then do so and put 250 bodies on the field. This list in its current incarnation just won't work.

I found this post pretty helpful, I don't mind your bluntness. I disagree about Mechanized Guard, Eldarzilla and Drop Pod marines, but shrike (cleverly-used), Nob bikers or a dual lash list could put hurt on me.

Taking all your points together, what would you propose fielding to deal with the issues you've raised?

Hey thanks for the response, I think you're right but I can't help but ask: Did anybody read the part about the platoon command squads in the valkyries? It doesn't solve all the issues on the list but it does answer a few. I feel like people completely missed that.

Hey guys, I like the way this discussion is going, and I hope people will provide more examples of their actual experiences with regards to playtesting. Since my gut says a lot stuff won't fly (no I won't give examples it's counter-productive)!

On a side note, has anyone tried playing against 3 separate Attack Bikes, each with a Multi-melta turbo-boosting on the first turn? I've found the 3+ cover save to be resilient, often making me waste my battle-cannon shots and lascannon shots if I'm unlucky. There's only so much fire-power I can pour out against three measly, annoying units versus the rest of my opponent's army.