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The Tactical Genius Special Rule of the Imperial Guards Lord Castellan Creed is not quite so ingenious for some people's interpretation.

Tactical Genius : During deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. That unit has the Scouts special rule for the duration of the battle.

Note that for one, it does not mention Calvary, such as Rough Riders, so it may not be applied to them. Next, and I guess this is a Rules As Intended issue, obviously when you set your units aside you choose which ones are going to be in reserves and which are going on the board, and decide which are going to Outflank, obviously this means any unit that is set to Outflank must have that ability which you can't decide unless you have already applied Tactical Genius, but you can't do that until deployment, which means you can't apply it while they are sitting in reserves.... bah, that's a ball of wax that isn't even worth mentioning. Clearly the intent and the rules flexible enough to note that a unit can Outflank with the Tactical Genius special rule.

So, is it completely permissible to set a platoon in reserves, combine all the squads, and apply Tactical Genius to them, and outflank. Another issue with this is what if they have a transport attached? Can they not Outflank? Or may they simply Outflank dismounted, with the vehicle coming on the table with them?

I put forward that they arrive on the table, unmounted, with Outflank, combined.

Skinnattittar wrote:So, is it completely permissible to set a platoon in reserves, combine all the squads[?]

As I stated in the other post, you cannot do this, so the Point is moot.
I'll Copy-Paste here:

Skinnattittar wrote:Based on what, Gwar? There is nothing in the Rulebook or the Codex that says such a thing. It does say that BEFORE deployment you have to decide which units will join up, not "you can not choose which units will join together in reserves."

Actually, no It doesn't. Stop Posting if you are not going to bother reading the rules. The rules state:

Page 37 wrote:The decision to form Combined Squads must be made at deployment. [...] For example, an Infantry Platoon consisting of [...] three ten-man infantry squads can instead choose to deploy as [...] a single thirty man squad or a [...] ten-man squad and a twenty-man squad. Combined Squads may not embark on vehicles that have insufficient transport capacity to carry the entire Combined Squad

Parts referencing the PCS removed for clarity. Bold for Emphasis. As shocking as this may be, I do read the rules before making my claims. Note that the Rule for not being able to embark is not a "Note this is how it is" but a whole new part of the rule. Codex > Rulebook, therefore even if you could blob up in reserves, you would be stopped from outflanking by this rule.

Skinnattittar wrote:My mistake, it isn't "before" it is during. So can you clarify where it states you can't decide to join up your squads during deployment from reserves? I'm sorry, but I'm not following your line of thought.

It doesn't have to clarify, because it is covered in the rules. Don't forget the rules are restrictive. You cannot say "oh it doesn't say I can't", it has to say you can.

Skinnattittar wrote: Are you insinuating that you can't do what it says?

No I am insinuating you can't do it because the rules do not say you can. Also, your attempts to (once again) make personal attacks in order to provoke a thread locking response are once again laudable. I wont be taking the bait however.

Skinnattittar wrote:Or that Creed's order could only be issued to one of those squads, but then if the other squads join together wouldn't that order not carry to them all, as they are now a single unit and that's how orders are sent

Ok, first of all, the Tactical Expertise is not an Order. Second of all, yes, if you want you can say that those 40 men are coming on from my edge and that one squad is outflanking, and once they deploy onto the board they are combining into one squad. That is fine. Just enjoy spending the rest of the game moving them back into coherency. However, if they have a Chimera, they are not deploying directly, the Chimera is (with them inside) so they cannot Deploy with the combined squad, but instead deploy embarked on the Chimera.

Apologies for the huge Quote.

I've read what you put up there, Gwar, and I don't see how anywhere it says anything like that. Tactical Genius clearly states "During deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army." So either during the deployment phase of the game in the beginning or during the deployment of reserves, take the special rule, and on rolls a combined squad of Guardsmen from one of the flanks. The rules are quite clear about this, either way how you want to interpret deployment.

EDIT : I don't have my rulebook in hand [employment] to check the deployment, reserves, and outflank sections, so forgive me if I am missing something specific that would prohibit this.

Skinnattittar wrote:I've read what you put up there, Gwar, and I don't see how anywhere it says anything like that. Tactical Genius clearly states "During deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army." So either during the deployment phase of the game in the beginning or during the deployment of reserves, take the special rule, and on rolls a combined squad of Guardsmen from one of the flanks. The rules are quite clear about this, either way how you want to interpret deployment.

EDIT : I don't have my rulebook in hand [employment] to check the deployment, reserves, and outflank sections, so forgive me if I am missing something specific that would prohibit this.

You are. Deployment is one of two things. Putting the Models on the board pre game, or moving them on from reserves. Keeping them in Reserves does not count as deployment. As they are not Deployed, they cannot "Combine Squads", so Creed will never be able to give more than one 10 man unit with/without chimera the "Scouts".

Would you mind quoting where in the rulebook it states that? I don't have mine with me and I have never heard of Reserves not counting as a deployment. So this would also mean that units held in reserve can also never combine?

Skinnattittar wrote:Would you mind quoting where in the rulebook it states that? I don't have mine with me and I have never heard of Reserves not counting as a deployment. So this would also mean that units held in reserve can also never combine?

No, because moving onto the board from reserve is also deployment. This is why Marines coming on from the board edge can combat squad when doing so, and why IG squads combine then (and only then). It's all on page 94 in the reserve rules.

Both Outflank and Combined squads say the choice is made "during deployment" which is the beginning of the game when a player may decide upon Deepstriking, Reserves, and Outflanking.

BRB pg. 94 4th paragraph supports this:

During Deployment, when declaring which units are in Reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent.

Your usage of the word "Deployment" could mean that you could combine squads as they disembark from transport as well, since they are "deployed" around the Chimera.

So let me get this straight. Coming in from reserves (which includes outflank if I am not mistaken) allows you to combine squads. Tactical Genius occurs when a unit is deployed. I do not see how Tactical Genius does not apply to a unit that is deploying from reserves.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Both Outflank and Combined squads say the choice is made "during deployment" which is the beginning of the game when a player may decide upon Deepstriking, Reserves, and Outflanking.

BRB pg. 94 4th paragraph supports this:

During Deployment, when declaring which units are in Reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent.

Your usage of the word "Deployment" could mean that you could combine squads as they disembark from transport as well, since they are "deployed" around the Chimera.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I remembered it. Book is not on hand though so I could not make a direct quote. And I think you also just opened another can of worms. I might have to amend the beginning post to include that, because that makes quite a bit of sense for these special rules.

Skinnattittar wrote:So let me get this straight. Coming in from reserves (which includes outflank if I am not mistaken) allows you to combine squads. Tactical Genius occurs when a unit is deployed. I do not see how Tactical Genius does not apply to a unit that is deploying from reserves.

Because you pick the squad "during deployment", which is the Pre Game step, not "when a unit Deploys". Subtle difference in wording, but it makes all the difference, especially since granting Scouts to a Unit mid game is beyond pointless.

Gwar! wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:So let me get this straight. Coming in from reserves (which includes outflank if I am not mistaken) allows you to combine squads. Tactical Genius occurs when a unit is deployed. I do not see how Tactical Genius does not apply to a unit that is deploying from reserves.

Because you pick the squad "during deployment", which is the Pre Game step, not "when a unit Deploys". Subtle difference in wording, but it makes all the difference, especially since granting Scouts to a Unit mid game is beyond pointless.

Actually isn't that technically open to interpretation? Given sentence structure it could quite easily be "at [the unit's] deployment" and "during [the unit's] deployment" are exactly the same thing, with different wording. That is if we are even going to argue that "at" and "during" in these contexts are different, which I wouldn't say that they are. Lastly, neither state "pregame" nor am I aware that "during deployment" is a strictly pregame term. I would say "Initial Deployment" if I wanted it specifically to mean before the first turn, or I would say "Before the first turn."

Skinnattittar wrote: Given sentence structure it could quite easily be "at [the unit's] deployment" and "during [the unit's] deployment" are exactly the same thing, with different wording.

Are the terms "During Hannukah" and "when Hannukah is celebrated" the same? Not at all. One indicates a set time period, and another indicates a variable time period which may or may not coincide with the first. Same situation here. Unfortunately there is (once again) no clarification.

Wait a second, I think we are getting mixed up here.
It is perfectly fine (nay, it is the only way it is useful) for creed to give a single unit Scouts pre game and allowing that one unit to outflank. That is not what I am saying is not allowed.

What is not allowed is the Combining of Squads in reserves (i.e. Not Deployed) to blob up, as the Rules for Combined Squads say it must be done "at deployment" (which is different to "During Deployment"). "At Deployment means "at the time they are Deployed", similar to How Combat Squads Break off "At Deployment". So, while you can walk in the platoon from Reserves as one 50 Man Squad + whatever extras, you cannot make them 50 man while in reserves and give that 50 man squad scouts via Creed, only one Infantry Squad (10 men with/without Commissar, with/without attached IC's, with/without Chimera) may elect to outflank (as stated During deployment when you announce what is in reserve and how it is arriving).

Edit: Lordhat Ninja'd me on the At/During issue. I blame Fallout 3 and its Gunmetal Grey and Dystopia Brown Sexiness.

Lordhat wrote:
Are the terms "During Hannukah" and "when Hannukah is celebrated" the same? Not at all. One indicates a set time period, and another indicates a variable time period which may or may not coincide with the first. Same situation here. Unfortunately there is (once again) no clarification.

But "During Hannukah" and "at Hannukah" are, which is the actual wording of the two rules.

So, Gwar, would you object to Infantry squads combining as they disembark from their respective transports? Since they are "Deployed" around the access point?

Lordhat wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote: Given sentence structure it could quite easily be "at [the unit's] deployment" and "during [the unit's] deployment" are exactly the same thing, with different wording.

Are the terms "During Hannukah" and "when Hannukah is celebrated" the same? Not at all. One indicates a set time period, and another indicates a variable time period which may or may not coincide with the first. Same situation here. Unfortunately there is (once again) no clarification.

Pardon? "During Hannukah we light the menorah," "when Hannukah is celebrated we light the menorah." "During Hannukah we visit family," "when Hannukah is celebrated we visit family." Firstly, explain how the two are different, secondly, please state and example showing when they are different.

Gwar! wrote:Wait a second, I think we are getting mixed up here.
It is perfectly fine (nay, it is the only way it is useful) for creed to give a single unit Scouts pre game and allowing that one unit to outflank. That is not what I am saying is not allowed.

What is not allowed is the Combining of Squads in reserves (i.e. Not Deployed) to blob up, as the Rules for Combined Squads say it must be done "at deployment" (which is different to "During Deployment"). "At Deployment means "at the time they are Deployed", similar to How Combat Squads Break off "At Deployment". So, while you can walk in the platoon from Reserves as one 50 Man Squad + whatever extras, you cannot make them 50 man while in reserves and give that 50 man squad scouts via Creed, only one Infantry Squad (10 men with/without Commissar, with/without attached IC's, with/without Chimera) may elect to outflank (as stated During deployment when you announce what is in reserve and how it is arriving).

No, there was no confusion. Perhaps you are reading far too much into it and applying your own perceptions of how phrases might be used? Because those seem like just different ways of saying the same exact thing.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So, Gwar, would you object to Infantry squads combining as they disembark from their respective transports? Since they are "Deployed" around the access point?

This was brought up in another thread. I cannot remember the exact name for the Falacy it entailed, but what is happening here is that the same word is being used for two different meanings. So no, you could not combine when you are deploying from a transport, as you were already in the board (albeit inside a transport) so you are for all intents and purposes deployed.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Given sentence structure it could quite easily be "at [the unit's] deployment" and "during [the unit's] deployment" are exactly the same thing, with different wording.

Are the terms "During Hannukah" and "when Hannukah is celebrated" the same? Not at all. One indicates a set time period, and another indicates a variable time period which may or may not coincide with the first. Same situation here. Unfortunately there is (once again) no clarification.

Pardon? "During Hannukah we light the menorah," "when Hannukah is celebrated we light the menorah." "During Hannukah we visit family," "when Hannukah is celebrated we visit family." Firstly, explain how the two are different, secondly, please state and example showing when they are different.

Using Chanukah is a Bad example because there is no such thing as "at Chanukah" (I'm t3h Jew, I know these things). What he means is "Suring Deployment" suggest a length of time entailing deployment, which is the pre game part where you deploy your army. "At Deployment" suggests when that one particular Squad is Deployed, whenever that may be.

Gwar! wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So, Gwar, would you object to Infantry squads combining as they disembark from their respective transports? Since they are "Deployed" around the access point?

This was brought up in another thread. I cannot remember the exact name for the Falacy it entailed, but what is happening here is that the same word is being used for two different meanings. So no, you could not combine when you are deploying from a transport, as you were already in the board (albeit inside a transport) so you are for all intents and purposes deployed.

So says the rules lawyer..... RAW (please remember I am working strictly from memory at the moment) this is correct, whether you are on the board or not, "deployed/deployment" is in all facts of the matter the same word in different [insert proper grammatical term here as the author of this post is quite horrid with such linguistic abstractions]. However, RAI, it quite obviously is not so, but lawyering is lawyering and there is a lot of that going around on the "You Make Da Call" forum.

Couldn't the same be said for units in Reserve then? Since it specifically says "when Deploying their army" and "During deployment" as the time to decide on Reserves/Outflank.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So, Gwar, would you object to Infantry squads combining as they disembark from their respective transports? Since they are "Deployed" around the access point?

This was brought up in another thread. I cannot remember the exact name for the Falacy it entailed, but what is happening here is that the same word is being used for two different meanings. So no, you could not combine when you are deploying from a transport, as you were already in the board (albeit inside a transport) so you are for all intents and purposes deployed.

So says the rules lawyer..... RAW (please remember I am working strictly from memory at the moment) this is correct, whether you are on the board or not, "deployed/deployment" is in all facts of the matter the same word in different [insert proper grammatical term here as the author of this post is quite horrid with such linguistic abstractions]. However, RAI, it quite obviously is not so, but lawyering is lawyering and there is a lot of that going around on the "You Make Da Call" forum.

Why do people think rules Lawyering is bad? It seems to me its only bad when you don;t agree with it. Ut's the only way to clear up certain issues (like this one). Just because you think it should work like this, does not mean it does. RaI means utter bumpkin when dealing with what the rules actually say. They are not Unclear or ambiguous in this instance, as I have shown.

I am not one to storm out of a thread childishly, but, that being said, I have Made my point. I have shown why and how it works like I said it works. I have nothing further to add to this thread with regards to my argument. If a valid point does come up, I shall endeavour to answer it. Till then I bid you all a farewell.

Gwar! wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Given sentence structure it could quite easily be "at [the unit's] deployment" and "during [the unit's] deployment" are exactly the same thing, with different wording.

Are the terms "During Hannukah" and "when Hannukah is celebrated" the same? Not at all. One indicates a set time period, and another indicates a variable time period which may or may not coincide with the first. Same situation here. Unfortunately there is (once again) no clarification.

Pardon? "During Hannukah we light the menorah," "when Hannukah is celebrated we light the menorah." "During Hannukah we visit family," "when Hannukah is celebrated we visit family." Firstly, explain how the two are different, secondly, please state and example showing when they are different.

Using Chanukah is a Bad example because there is no such thing as "at Chanukah" (I'm t3h Jew, I know these things). What he means is "Suring Deployment" suggest a length of time entailing deployment, which is the pre game part where you deploy your army. "At Deployment" suggests when that one particular Squad is Deployed, whenever that may be.

Could "at Deployment" also be interpreted as "at [the period during which you Deploy]" making Deployment a noun/whatever rather than a verb/adverb/whatever.

Gwar! wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So, Gwar, would you object to Infantry squads combining as they disembark from their respective transports? Since they are "Deployed" around the access point?

This was brought up in another thread. I cannot remember the exact name for the Falacy it entailed, but what is happening here is that the same word is being used for two different meanings. So no, you could not combine when you are deploying from a transport, as you were already in the board (albeit inside a transport) so you are for all intents and purposes deployed.

So says the rules lawyer..... RAW (please remember I am working strictly from memory at the moment) this is correct, whether you are on the board or not, "deployed/deployment" is in all facts of the matter the same word in different [insert proper grammatical term here as the author of this post is quite horrid with such linguistic abstractions]. However, RAI, it quite obviously is not so, but lawyering is lawyering and there is a lot of that going around on the "You Make Da Call" forum.

Why do people think rules Lawyering is bad? It seems to me its only bad when you don;t agree with it. Ut's the only way to clear up certain issues (like this one). Just because you think it should work like this, does not mean it does. RaI means utter bumpkin when dealing with what the rules actually say. They are not Unclear or ambiguous in this instance, as I have shown.

I am not one to storm out of a thread childishly, but, that being said, I have Made my point. I have shown why and how it works like I said it works. I have nothing further to add to this thread with regards to my argument. If a valid point does come up, I shall endeavour to answer it. Till then I bid you all a farewell.

Firstly, I never said rules lawyering was bad. Secondly, no, you have not yet shown that the rules are clear and unambiguous, in fact, you have only further assisted in proving they ARE unclear, or ambiguous, which is a bit strong of a word here.

Skinnattittar wrote:
So, is it completely permissible to set a platoon in reserves, combine all the squads, and apply Tactical Genius to them, and outflank. Another issue with this is what if they have a transport attached? Can they not Outflank? Or may they simply Outflank dismounted, with the vehicle coming on the table with them?

I put forward that they arrive on the table, unmounted, with Outflank, combined.

I agree with Gwar on most of his points but I did find one thing in the rules for outflanking (pg 94):

"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto he table embarked in it."


The part I've highlighted in red tells me that a player who has an Infantry platoon with multiple infantry squads that have dedicated Chimeras is allowed to declare that they are outflanking ONLY the platoon units and not the transport(s). When the Reserve roll is made the infantry unit will arrive outflanking while the transports will arrive normally from the player's own table edge.


But beyond that point, I agree with Gwar that if you combine infantry units that have Chimeras you cannot outflank with all of them (infantry & Chimeras) together because the rules require them to arrive in their vehicles, which they cannot legally do.

OR

Just fething take al'rahem to stop people from arguing this silly, silly point.

Valhallan42nd wrote:OR

Just fething take al'rahem to stop people from arguing this silly, silly point.

He has the exact same problem.

yakface wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:
So, is it completely permissible to set a platoon in reserves, combine all the squads, and apply Tactical Genius to them, and outflank. Another issue with this is what if they have a transport attached? Can they not Outflank? Or may they simply Outflank dismounted, with the vehicle coming on the table with them?

I put forward that they arrive on the table, unmounted, with Outflank, combined.

I agree with Gwar on most of his points but I did find one thing in the rules for outflanking (pg 94):

"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto he table embarked in it."


The part I've highlighted in red tells me that a player who has an Infantry platoon with multiple infantry squads that have dedicated Chimeras is allowed to declare that they are outflanking ONLY the platoon units and not the transport(s). When the Reserve roll is made the infantry unit will arrive outflanking while the transports will arrive normally from the player's own table edge.


But beyond that point, I agree with Gwar that if you combine infantry units that have Chimeras you cannot outflank with all of them (infantry & Chimeras) together because the rules require them to arrive in their vehicles, which they cannot legally do.

Actually, I tried to keep my stance on the whole Chimera issue uncommitted, if you can't fit them in there, you can't fit them in there and that's that. How they got on the table, well I still haven't reviewed that section yet for the exact wording, but I'll trust you, Yakface, on that quote. My intention was to address whether Creed's Tactical Genius special rule would allow a combined unit of infantry squads to Outflank with Scouts.

Gwar is saying you may not combine squads held in Reserve at all. Regardless of Outflank and regardless of transports. What say you now, Yak?

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Gwar is saying you may not combine squads held in Reserve at all. Regardless of Outflank and regardless of transports. What say you now, Yak?

OK I went back and read what was being said more carefully and I do agree with his assessment, although I don't think it is very clear.

The term "deployment" has traditionally been used in the rules to identify that period before the game where units are either deployed or put into reserves.

The recent SM codices with their combat squad rules were pretty clear that the units split "when the unit is deployed", which obviously happens when the unit actually is deployed on the table.

The IG codex unfortunately uses the term "at deployment" which uses the "deployment" word which has usually been reserved for the pre-game deployment 'phase' but the present tense inclusion of "at" does seem to indicate that this is when the unit is actually deployed as opposed to that pre-game deployment 'phase'.

This interpretation also makes the Platoon behave like the SM combat squads which is probably the way they intended as well (but who knows).

Ultimately I do think it does deserve a FAQ ruling from GW.

The recent SM codices with their combat squad rules were pretty clear that the units split "when the unit is deployed", which obviously happens when the unit actually is deployed on the table.

But even that clearly worded statement "when the unit is deployed" is contradicting itself later when it says:

the one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod. The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

Isn't that "when the unit is deployed"??!!!

iwould say this suggests that the decision to CS a unit was made in the Deployment Phase and that they assume by saying "when the unit is deployed" we get that. Because the "exception" seems to point towards it.

Ultimately, I think Gwar's interpretation will be ignored by the majority of players.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

The recent SM codices with their combat squad rules were pretty clear that the units split "when the unit is deployed", which obviously happens when the unit actually is deployed on the table.

But even that clearly worded statement "when the unit is deployed" is contradicting itself later when it says:

the one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod. The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

Isn't that "when the unit is deployed"??!!!

iwould say this suggests that the decision to CS a unit was made in the Deployment Phase and that they assume by saying "when the unit is deployed" we get that. Because the "exception" seems to point towards it.

Ummm, the "one exception" they refer to is the sentence before: "Both Combat Squads can be deployed in separate locations". A squad arriving via Drop Pod is the exception to this in that they have to arrive together and then split as they disembark.

Under no circumstance can you read that Combat Squads can be split when placed into Reserves. This is only possible "when the unit is deployed" and putting units into reserve is done instead of deploying a unit.

Valhallan42nd wrote:
Ultimately, I think Gwar's interpretation will be ignored by the majority of players.

I do agree with that.

Ummm, the "one exception" they refer to is the sentence before: "Both Combat Squads can be deployed in separate locations". A squad arriving via Drop Pod is the exception to this in that they have to arrive together and then split as they disembark.

That would make sense if the next sentence didn't say:

The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

This clearly is referring to when the CS squad decision is made not the location of the unit's deployment.

Valhallan42nd wrote:
Ultimately, I think Gwar's interpretation will be ignored by the majority of players.

I can guarantee this one won't end up in his sig...LOL

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Ummm, the "one exception" they refer to is the sentence before: "Both Combat Squads can be deployed in separate locations". A squad arriving via Drop Pod is the exception to this in that they have to arrive together and then split as they disembark.

That would make sense if the next sentence didn't say:

The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

This clearly is referring to when the CS squad decision is made not the location of the unit's deployment.

No, again the rule is there to prevent a player from saying that when his unit is arriving via drop pod he is going to split 1/2 off and have it walk on the table while the other half arrives in the Pod, because the sentence before says units being split into combat squads can arrive in separate locations.

The Drop Pod is an exception because the unit arrives together (in the Pod) and then splits when it disembarks. This most certainly is an exception to the normal rule.