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Hi again...this rules query came up in a game a day or 2 ago (deja vu?)

An IG vet squad (I think) of 5 members fired their plasma out of a chimera. 2 died due to overheating...they now have to take an LD test right? If they pass it's all fine and dandy, but what happens if they fail...do they disembark within 2" of an exit point and continue to fall back? Just curious.

Lukus83 wrote:Hi again...this rules query came up in a game a day or 2 ago (deja vu?)

An IG vet squad (I think) of 5 members fired their plasma out of a chimera. 2 died due to overheating...they now have to take an LD test right? If they pass it's all fine and dandy, but what happens if they fail...do they disembark within 2" of an exit point and continue to fall back? Just curious.

This is an unknown grey area in the rules.

By the RAW the unit would have to take a morale check and if it failed it is required to fall back but the rules for disembarking don't allow for a unit to fall back out of a vehicle so we have no idea what to do.

We ruled with the INAT FAQ that units inside vehicles don't take morale checks because that's the way most people seem to play that I've seen. Another option would be to rule the opposite way that they are allowed to disembark immediately in order to fall back.

But this really is a complete and total grey area in the rules that you simply have to come to a conclusion with your opponent on what you want to do and proceed from there.

Thanks for that Yakface...will discuss it with our group later this week. In any case it seems like a pretty rare scenario.

You missed one option "Trapped!" if a unit can't fall back it is destroyed ... an extreme option but imagine a group of armed people panicking in a tight inclosed space.

Tri wrote:You missed one option "Trapped!" if a unit can't fall back it is destroyed ... an extreme option but imagine a group of armed people panicking in a tight inclosed space.

No, Just no. Sorry, but it has to be said.

What, having a plasma gun explode in a cramped area wouldnt do any damage?

I wouldnt play like that though...Id say they ignore the test, as you can only embar or disembark in the move phase.

Even if you too the test and failed, they wouldnt be able to get out...

Xenith wrote:What, having a plasma gun explode in a cramped area wouldnt do any damage?

Well if you are firing a Plasma Gun Inside the Chimera your guardsmen are not very good at their job. And how is "Overheat" and "Explodes" the same thing?

Gwar, the gun might implode :O


but i see your point there, allthough, it may explode after it overheats

Plus the fumes of two overheating plasma guns in the same vehicle...that'd be pretty poisonous. Besides, if your vets have just lost all their firepower and 25% of your squad then if I was commanding them I'd say they're dead!! But thats just me.

Gwar! wrote:And how is "Overheat" and "Explodes" the same thing?

Well, the overheat of the unstable plasma gun being enough to kill a marine who has full rebreathers and environmental protection, the only way its going to damage him is if it gets hot 'violently'

...Id say that having that happen in a chimera with a load of normal humans wouldnt be too pretty, be it explosion, leakage of plasma or whatever.

Well, considering you are leaning out of it when you fire, I would assume the gasses go outside. Not to mention, the Armour save you get is not just the Armour you have, I see it as being able to contain it as well. A Marine is far more trained, so has the 3+ to avoid the catastrophe, while the inexperienced Human Guardsman has only a 5+ chance to not cause it to assplode.

Well, I don't have a rulebook handy at the moment, but the entry under overheating (unless it's somewhere else) states that vehicles firing weapons do not suffer the overheat mishap. Might GW have wanted players to treat infantry firing from the inside of a vehicle as the vehicle itself firing from the fire points? I've forgotten if the fire point rule specifically rules that infantry are the ones shooting and suffering from its effects or not.

Slackermagee wrote:Well, I don't have a rulebook handy at the moment, but the entry under overheating (unless it's somewhere else) states that vehicles firing weapons do not suffer the overheat mishap. Might GW have wanted players to treat infantry firing from the inside of a vehicle as the vehicle itself firing from the fire points? I've forgotten if the fire point rule specifically rules that infantry are the ones shooting and suffering from its effects or not.

No, the Vehicle is not firing the Plasma weapon, the Unit inside is, so it overheats as normal.

Just a thought here, but shouldnt melta be the weps that overheat?
considering they are super hair dryers you would have thought they tend to heat up alot more.

JD21290 wrote:Just a thought here, but shouldnt melta be the weps that overheat?
considering they are super hair dryers you would have thought they tend to heat up alot more.

Melta weaponry is based of stable and safe Technology. Plasma Weapons require Magnetic Containment and use Fusion. It seems that it CAN be made safe (The Eldar and the Tau both use "safe" plasma Weaponry), but the Imperium is just useless it seems.

Gwar, lets face it here, who gives a feth about a guardsmen?
another guy in his unit will pick it up once the 1st dies anyway, allthough he will possibly suffer the same fate.

marines think they are just to Uber to worry about such a thing



but yea, i would love to see overheating melta weps, wouldnt make them such a steal then

Well they are hardly a "Steal" as they are much shorter Ranged (A meltagun needs to be within 6" to really be that much more effective than a Plasmagun) and are much slower Firing (Assault 1 as opposed to Rapid Fire)

And? 2D6 armour pen is pretty fething good for its points cost
most melta troops will be dropped into combat anyway (pod, valk etc) so range isnt a problem.

iev just thought that they have allways had way too much strength there

In all honesty, I have never known anyone to take a Leadership test from their own Plasma frags. I mean, that's not really a "Run away!" sort of thing to be honest. But if it says in the rules they have to then they have to.

I always think of those morale tests being the result of soldiers freaking out because a quarter of their buddies just goit fragged right in front of them. therfor, they would run away. but if people die because their weapon exploded they might take cover, but they wouldnt out and out run away. If you're in a vehicle you're definitely not going to jump out in the middle of a dangerou battleground unless yiou absolutely ahve to/were planning to. I guess any units falling back in a transport would stay put, seeing as their safer in there. if they disembark then they'd retreat though.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:You missed one option "Trapped!" if a unit can't fall back it is destroyed ... an extreme option but imagine a group of armed people panicking in a tight inclosed space.

No, Just no. Sorry, but it has to be said.

Yes but it covers 100% of the rules

For any reason ..."A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back". Since there are no rules for disembarking at any time other then during the movement phase, they are 'Trapped'. So they get destroyed.

Now you can explain it how ever you like but that's the only way you can meet all the rules. Ignoring the test or the restrictions for disembarking are not.

And if you want more fluffy reasons normal you'd be spread out so when bob's plasma gun miss fires and sets him on fire every one just laughs. Inside a Chimera its a different matter, if you can't get it together and put bob out you're all going to burn to death, when what's left of the plasma core explodes.

If Tri has correct rules (which without my main rulebook I think he does) I would say he has made a proper rules lawyering. If you can't Fall Back, you are destroyed. If you Fall Back from a vehicle and can't get out (because you can't disembark during the shooting phase) you are destroyed. I wouldn't play it that way though.

I say the player themself needs to make a leadership check or facepalm.

Tri wrote:Since there are no rules for disembarking at any time other then during the movement phase, they are 'Trapped'. So they get destroyed.

Incorrect
From page 45:

Sometimes a unit will find its fall back, move blocked by impassable terrain, friendly models or enemy models.

If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed.

As you can see, just being unable to make a fall back move does not result in a Trapped! result, they must be unable to "perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back" , which a unit inside a Transport vehicle is not doing, it just cannot fall back because it cannot disembark, not because it has to double back.

Trapped If a unit cannot perform a full fall back movement in any direction without doubling back, it is destroy.

Gwar! Let me brake that rule up for you.

If a unit cannot perform a full fall back movement in any direction without doubling back, it is destroy.

First part means you must make the full 2D6" (or 3D6") movement even if it takes you away from your board edge (so long as that would be the shortest root to it)

Second part covers cleaver thinking where your unit runs say 6" and then 4" back or runs in a circle or zigzag.

If you fail ether of these you are destroyed.

A unit in a transport cannot make a full 2D6" move in any direction so it is destroyed. It doesn't get the option of moving in a circle but that wouldn't help ether.

No, you cannot do that, you are ignoring part of a rule to fit your argument. It doesn't work like that.
If the rule had a comma between the two clauses, you would have a case. As it is, they are not seperate, and in order to be trapped you must fufill both parts. That is, be unable to "perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back", not just be unable to "perform a full fall back move in any direction".

A unit inside a transport that fails a Morale test is not unable to "perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back", but rather just unable to "perform a full fall back move".

Very, very different.

? If you don't need to perform a full fall back move why would it matter if you are doubling back ?

The rules is there so you must move the full 2D6" (or 3D6") you cannot for any reason not make it and you cannot claim to be making it by moving in a circle.

Also for your information, the loss of the comma is another F! typo, It is there in the last rule book and every thing else is identical

Well Buddy, Last edition don't mean squat. The rules for Trapped say you have to be unable to "perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back". Anything else does not result in a Trapped! result, if you go by the RaW.

?????? It is a Typo. But if you insist on this then explain this? If a unit cannot make a full move in any direction or double back what happens?

Tri wrote:?????? It is a Typo.

Then where is the Errata saying so? Oh, there isn't any, ergo it is not a typo. Yes it is a "Rules Lawyer" way of reading the rules, but thats what the RaW says.

The main problem is that the rules are written from the perspective of a unit not inside a Transport, which is why the wording works, as a Unit that is unable to make their fall back move by definition cannot make it because they would have to double back because of models in the way.