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Finally someone who actually makes some sense on a rule call.... any chance you wanna start running RTT's?

Mod in:

In the course of another exciting rule argument, some comments have been passed that raised a couple of Moderator alerts for posters in this thread.

Things have calmed down so I don't need to lock the thread.

Everyone please remember rule no.1 -- Be polite. Even when feelings run high, do your best to post in polite language no matter how stupid you may think the other person's argument.

Mod out.

Gitzbitah has it right, as far as I see it.
The independent character does not get the 'Doc Tools Rule' but there is nothing stopping the painboy from using its own rules on the IC.

If the Ork codex is infallible and lists special rules everywhere they are supposed to be listed, I'd like to know where your made-up "confers the FNP ability to his unit" special rule is notated? What is the name of your unique special rule, and where is the text for it being described as a special rule.

I'd also like to see the term "special rule" mentioned, and I'd like to know which category Dok's Tools is listed under in the Painboy entry.

Regarding your definition of 'ability,' I would like for you to explain the following:

FNP wrote:If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice.

There is no ambiguous definition of 'special rule' or 'ability' that needs to be picked over. Refering to it as 'this ability' in the USR itself provides the evidence that 'ability' is a direct substitution for 'special rule."

FNP is not a 'model special rule.'

There are,
however, quite a few special rules that are
shared by several units, even across different
Codex books. These are called ‘universal
special rules’ and are listed in this section for
ease of reference.

Note how it does not say "shared by several models as your proposal of FNP being a model special rule would have it read. FNP, despite the text inside it, is listed along with all the other "special rules that are shared by (several) units."

Thus, FNP is not a 'model' special rule but rather a unit special rule, which refers to itself as an ability, and thus the Ork codex is not breaking new ground and creating a "confers FNP ability" special rule. Combined with the fact there is no "confers FNP ability" special rule listed for the Painboy, we come to the conclusion that your argument is not correct.

Well-argued indeed, but flawed.

Trekari wrote:If the Ork codex is infallible and lists special rules everywhere they are supposed to be listed, I'd like to know where your made-up "confers the FNP ability to his unit" special rule is notated? What is the name of your unique special rule, and where is the text for it being described as a special rule.

Not to sound like a jerk... but the special rule is called "Dok's Tools". It is listed as Wargear on page 98 of the Ork codex, and rules can be found in the appropiate section for painboys on page 38. It follows the normal rules for wargear.

That argument comes down to is the IC in the unit. If you use just the "unit composition" then the painboy is not in that unit either as it only states "3-10 nobs" and make no reference to any painboys. In other words, this is just silly.

except the pain boy is an upgraded nob... so yes he is in the unit composition

It says one Nob "may be upgraded"

Gen Lee, I don't think you are looking at this argument from the perspective Trek is.

I believe he is saying that its as simple as an IC joining a unit with a special rule.

Do the nobs have the special rule FNP when the pain boy is there? The answer is yes.

Is the warboss joining part of the unit? The answer again is yes.

Does the warboss, who NEVER LOSES HIS IC status benefit from the units rules? Unfortunately no. Page 48 says unless the rules say so he doesn't.

Yes the dok's tools say "unit", but page 48 then says even though he is part of the unit he still would not benefit since the requirement is the kind of wording you would find in the chaplain special rules.

I hope this clarifies his argument a bit for you.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

Trekari wrote:If the Ork codex is infallible and lists special rules everywhere they are supposed to be listed, I'd like to know where your made-up "confers the FNP ability to his unit" special rule is notated? What is the name of your unique special rule, and where is the text for it being described as a special rule.

Not to sound like a jerk... but the special rule is called "Dok's Tools". It is listed as Wargear on page 98 of the Ork codex, and rules can be found in the appropiate section for painboys on page 38. It follows the normal rules for wargear.

That argument comes down to is the IC in the unit. If you use just the "unit composition" then the painboy is not in that unit either as it only states "3-10 nobs" and make no reference to any painboys. In other words, this is just silly.

Well I'm glad you didn't want to sound like a jerk.

Because Special Rules has one section for a unit entry, and Wargear has another.

Dok's Tools is listed as Wargear, not as a Special Rule. To the idea that there is a Painboy special rule of "Grants FNP to his unit" has no support in the rules, as there is not a Special Rule listed that describes this new and 'quite possibly unique' Painboy Special Rule. It is a made-up justification for why the rules don't actually apply.

My interpretation is based on language, rules, FNP, Special Rules, IC status, unit composition, etc. And in none of those places do I need to make something up in order for things to fit.

Dok's Tools is listed as Wargear, not as a Special Rule. To the idea that there is a Painboy special rule of "Grants FNP to his unit" has no support in the rules, as there is not a Special Rule listed that describes this new and 'quite possibly unique' Painboy Special Rule. It is a made-up justification for why the rules don't actually apply.

Umm...Are you saying that the only special rules in the game are only found in the BGB?

This is completely not true.

Is there a special rule in the BGB that describes "We'll be back" special rule for necrons? Or a special rule in the BGB that describes "Aegis Armor" for the Daemon Hunters?

The BGB pg. 74 even says that there are 'unique' special rules *BUT* "there are a few special rules that are shared by several units, even across different Codex books." The USRs are only rules that are "universal" and are shared, so they list them for easy reference.

There can be any unique, bizarre, and totally mind blowing special rules out there that in this interpretation

has no support in the rules

that can function because they exist in an army's codex.

*Deleted* Double posted

Dok's Tools is listed as Wargear, not as a Special Rule. To the idea that there is a Painboy special rule of "Grants FNP to his unit" has no support in the rules, as there is not a Special Rule listed that describes this new and 'quite possibly unique' Painboy Special Rule. It is a made-up justification for why the rules don't actually apply.

Umm...Are you saying that the only special rules in the game are only found in the BGB?

This is completely not true.

Is there a special rule in the BGB that describes "We'll be back" special rule for necrons? Or a special rule in the BGB that describes "Aegis Armor" for the Daemon Hunters?

The BGB pg. 74 even says that there are 'unique' special rules *BUT* "there are a few special rules that are shared by several units, even across different Codex books." The USRs are only rules that are "universal" and are shared, so they list them for easy reference.

There can be any unique, bizarre, and totally mind blowing special rules out there that in this interpretation

has no support in the rules

that can function because they exist in an army's codex.

Does the warboss, who NEVER LOSES HIS IC status benefit from the units rules? Unfortunately no. Page 48 says unless the rules say so he doesn't.

This is your opinion. As you have shown with a poll, this is not Fact, even GW resident rules guy said Yes. Also, it does says he gets it with the phrase "his unit" and per Pg. 48 you only need to "specify" in the rule that ICs can have it, and since he is in "his unit" well...that *is* specified.

...

and this is why i collect neither of these armies. Why is everyone so intelliegent? and for that matter, where the hell are my headphones?

Padixon -

Would you go look at the Painboy entry before spitting out something completely irrelevant? Try reading my entire post before responding.

Dok's Tools is not labeled as a Special Rule.

There is also no Special Rule listed for a Painboy that says anything about "Grants his unit FNP."

The only place such text exists is under the Dok's Tools entry, which is WARGEAR.

The Painboy grants his 2-9 Nobz and himself, FNP.

FNP is a SPECIAL RULE.

SPECIAL RULES must specify that IC's get a unit's special rule.

I do not understand how reading pg. 48, which has been quoted a million times, has not sunk in yet.

Now quote FNP and show me where in the SPECIAL RULE ITSELF of FNP, that it confers the FNP to ICs who join a unit with FNP.

I hate humans.

Trekari wrote:

Dok's Tools is listed as Wargear, not as a Special Rule. To the idea that there is a Painboy special rule of "Grants FNP to his unit" has no support in the rules, as there is not a Special Rule listed that describes this new and 'quite possibly unique' Painboy Special Rule. It is a made-up justification for why the rules don't actually apply.

.

It is not made up. The rules are there in the wargear section. It is very clear that the gear possessed by the painboy give the "Feel No Pain" USR to his unit. When a character joins a unit he is a part of that unit at all times until he leaves that unit. The only exception is during a brief portion of the Assault phase where the attacks are handled as two separate units, but he immediately is considered part of the unit once more.

Since the IC is part of the unit, and the painboss gives his unit FNP, then the IC gains feel no pain so long as he is a part of the unit.

Trekari wrote:Padixon -

Would you go look at the Painboy entry before spitting out something completely irrelevant? Try reading my entire post before responding.

Dok's Tools is not labeled as a Special Rule.

There is also no Special Rule listed for a Painboy that says anything about "Grants his unit FNP."

The only place such text exists is under the Dok's Tools entry, which is WARGEAR.

The Painboy grants his 2-9 Nobz and himself, FNP.

FNP is a SPECIAL RULE.

SPECIAL RULES must specify that IC's get a unit's special rule.

I do not understand how reading pg. 48, which has been quoted a million times, has not sunk in yet.

Now quote FNP and show me where in the SPECIAL RULE ITSELF of FNP, that it confers the FNP to ICs who join a unit with FNP.

I hate humans.

BBut your post shows a problem.
You stated that the Painboy gear is not a special rule. It is gear. So any rules about 'special rules' would not apply to wargear. Wargear has a self contained ruleset that explains exactly what the wargear does. Many items of wargear have an aura effect, or effect opposing models, etc. In this case we are talking about his unit. IC join units and are considered a part of that unit. If the IC is a part of the unit, then the wargear rule of effecting the unit applies to the IC. The IC to Unit special rules do not apply as we are talking about wargear. As soon as the IC joined the unit, he was a part of that unit. Therefore the wargear gave the IC the FNP USR. He is not getting the unit's special rule. He is given the rule by an item of wargear by virtue of being a part of the unit. Page 48 still applies in that the IC does not gain the Mob Rule, Furious Charge, or Waagh rules by virtue of his being an IC. But by joining the unit, the rule for the wargear covers him.

Gen Lee. where do the rules make a distinction between between innate and wargear granted special rules... I can't find it.

Also, when does an IC stop being an IC and therefore stop following the rules set forth for them on page 48?

Have you bothered to read any of the actual rules?

There is only ONE method for applying a special rule that a unit has, to an IC that is joining the unit that does not already have that special rule.

It is listed on pg. 48 of the BRB for your convenience.

By all means, if you can show me anywhere that mentions wargear being allowed to override pg. 48's mechanic, then do so.

Unit has FNP.

IC does not (unless it is Grotsnik).

FNP doesn't say it gets applied to ICs who join a unit with it.

FNP doesn't get conferred.

By virtue of joining the unit, the IC comes under the ruling for the wargear in that unit that effect the unit. Page 48 in not invalidated or overruled. All the stipulations of page 48 are in full effect. The unit does not give the IC the FNP. The wargear that effects the unit is giving it to the models of that unit, of which the IC is a part.

Again, the unit does not have FNP. That is the base flaw I see. A piece of wargear is giving it to the models in the unit. The IC is in the unit.

Unit does not have FNP.
IC does not have FNP.
IC joins Unit.
Item effects unit.
IC is part of unit.
IC is effected.

Which part of there being only ONE allowed mechanic for applying special rules from one unit to another did you not understand?

Provide me a location in the rules that supports your position.

Does the unit have FNP?

Does the IC?

Guess what, pg. 48 is the only permitted method to resolve the inevitable question of: What happens when an IC joins a unit and they have different Special Rules?

Nowhere will you find any text in the RULEBOOK that says "If Wargear applies a special rule to a unit, and an independent character joins that unit, the special rule is conferred."

Special Rules are handled exactly ONE WAY when dealing with ICs and units coming together. Either find rule support for a second in-game mechanism to deal with ICs and Special Rules, or go away and admit you have NOTHING to support your claim.

**EDIT**

Haha, I see your argument now states they don't have FNP.
If the Painboy gives them FNP, how are you claiming they don't have FNP?

I've also already covered that wargear is not latent in applying it's function until after you've joined ICs to the unit. When you purchase the Painboy upgrade character, he gives the unit FNP. This happens BEFORE ICs join and thus forces pg. 48 into effect to resolve the difference in Special Rules.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:A piece of wargear is giving it to the models in the unit. The IC is in the unit.

Entirely correct, this is of course the key point. The IC is not sharing the effects of a special rule, he's sharing the effects of a peice of wargear.

You'll find that no matter how many times you ask, neither Trekari or frgsinwntr will be willing to explain exactly why a peice of wargear is supposed to follow the requirements of a restriction against special rules. They'll tell you it definatly does though. But they won't tell you why...

Trekari wrote:

Haha, I see your argument now states they don't have FNP.
If the Painboy gives them FNP, how are you claiming they don't have FNP?

I've also already covered that wargear is not latent in applying it's function until after you've joined ICs to the unit. When you purchase the Painboy upgrade character, he gives the unit FNP. This happens BEFORE ICs join and thus forces pg. 48 into effect to resolve the difference in Special Rules.

Where does it say that this effect is a one time shot? Where does it say that this happens BEFORE ICs join? ( I like BOLD too!)

Doc tools state "A Painboy is an expert at repairing the sturdy Ork physique using a variety of mean-looking tools". This is an active sentence. Repairs are done after damage.

The unit does not have an inherit FNP rule. That is shown on their listing. A piece of wargear is giving it to the unit (active per above). So when the IC joins the unit he gets none of the specail rules, but the wargear will still effect him as he is part of the unit. He gets the ability from the wargear, not from the unit.

I've asked several times Gen. Lee, for you to quote any rule that supports your position:

You have replied with no evidence.

You also clearly have problems in understanding the pre-game sequence.

ICs are not permitted to join a unit until deployment. This is done after you have created your army list. If you have already created your army list, then you have already purchased the Painboy and the unit already has FNP because of this.

During deployment, you may attach ICs to units.

Does pg. 48 say "Inherent Special Rules," which would imply that other sources of Special Rules are not covered by those restrictions, or does it say "Special Rules" which covers any and all sources of Special Rules that one group has, and the other does not.

Special Rules, much like Assaults, are an exception to the IC being considered a 'normal member of the unit.' If this was not the case, then there would be no mechanic on pg. 48 to explain how the unit's special rules get conferred or not, because everyone would know "He's part of the unit now, so he gets these special rules too." As it stands, Special Rules have a specific method for applying or not. Saying "he's part of the unit so he gets it" goes directly against this mechanic and thus is not allowed as an acceptable resolution. It is violating the rules.

Because of the Painboy, FNP is one of his unit's special rules. Perhaps you missed the English instruction earlier about possessive nouns. The only way FNP is allowed to be conferred, is if FNP says so.

If you cannot find evidence to support your claims, then you cannot possibly be correct. I have shown evidence along every step of this discussion that completely and irrefutably supports my argument.

If it deals with Special Rules, and Independent Characters, then it deals with pg. 48. Feel free to waste your time arguing otherwise.

Trekari wrote:

If you cannot find evidence to support your claims, then you cannot possibly be correct. I have shown evidence along every step of this discussion that completely and irrefutably supports my argument.

I must have missed the part where you showed the rules for when wargear is activated. As far as I know, no rule is active until the model with that rule is on the table (i.e.- General in reserve may not give his leadership, lictors pheromones don't work until it shows, etc.) Please show me that rule. Thanks.

Also, please show the rules about the order of building an army list. Is this part of the game? Page 48 says a character can begin the game in a unit by being deployed with it. if the games begins with him in the unit, are you stating that rules are in effect pre-game? Please show me the rule for pre-game rules that cover this.

If you cannot show these rules, then I would submit that so long as I write my list as below, I meet all of your requirement.

Step One; Buy Warboss at X points.
step Two: Buy Nobs at X points.
Step Three: Join Warboss to Nobs.
Step Four: Buy Painboss

Unless there are rules written about the order of buying stuff on your list, then I can do this. Or I could say, while deploying the unit "I deploy the warboss with the nobs and I spent X points for the painboss." I held 'spare' points until the moment of deployment. I could make a note on my army list specifying the points and how and when they are spent. Unless you can show me the rules about when points are spent (moment ink touches paper? When the unit is deployed? 7:43am PST?)

Thanks, I do enjoy wasting my time and I appreciate your invitation to do so.

Trekari wrote:

During deployment, you may attach ICs to units.

Incorrect. It reads "an indepentant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency wth them."
It is a minor difference, but it plays to the idea of when the games begin and when do rules for models go into effect pre-deployment. I could not find any rules on rules going into effect pre-deployment. The coherent deployment is the mechanic to have the IC in the unit pre-game.

Trekari wrote:If the Ork codex is infallible and lists special rules everywhere they are supposed to be listed, I'd like to know where your made-up "confers the FNP ability to his unit" special rule is notated? What is the name of your unique special rule, and where is the text for it being described as a special rule.

I'd also like to see the term "special rule" mentioned, and I'd like to know which category Dok's Tools is listed under in the Painboy entry.

Regarding your definition of 'ability,' I would like for you to explain the following:

FNP wrote:If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice.

There is no ambiguous definition of 'special rule' or 'ability' that needs to be picked over. Refering to it as 'this ability' in the USR itself provides the evidence that 'ability' is a direct substitution for 'special rule."

FNP is not a 'model special rule.'

There are,
however, quite a few special rules that are
shared by several units, even across different
Codex books. These are called ‘universal
special rules’ and are listed in this section for
ease of reference.

Note how it does not say "shared by several models as your proposal of FNP being a model special rule would have it read. FNP, despite the text inside it, is listed along with all the other "special rules that are shared by (several) units."

Thus, FNP is not a 'model' special rule but rather a unit special rule, which refers to itself as an ability, and thus the Ork codex is not breaking new ground and creating a "confers FNP ability" special rule. Combined with the fact there is no "confers FNP ability" special rule listed for the Painboy, we come to the conclusion that your argument is not correct.

Well-argued indeed, but flawed.

1)What happens when the Painboy dies, if the Squad simply has FNP? Do they still have it?
2) Can you show me an Ork unit that is granted a model USR by their wargear that is listed in the special rules section, where the Ork codex tells us to look for unit special rules? I have shown an example of the opposite with the MEganobz. Though I haven't checked and am no longer near my codex, I'd hazard a guess that Warbikers do not have the 'Relentless' special rule listed in their entry. If they do, then this point is indeed flawed.
3) What is your explanation for the discrepancy in wording of the USR's themselves? Why are some listed as applying to units, while others apply to models?
4) Even following the idea that an ability and special rule are interchangeable terms, wouldn't the Doc's wargear be a special rule detailed in its entry? Where this varies from the operation of the USR, should we not follow the text located in the Doc's tools? Codex is greater than BRB.

I'm afraid I will be reduced to simply questioning points brought against the argument I laid out until I return from winter break. Because of this reduction in the value of my posts, I'll limit it to no more than one a day. Before this goes any further, thank you for keeping up this opposition Trekari. I really think what we're doing here is going to be of great value to the new INAT FAQ, and I never would have delved this deep if you weren't so adamant about your position.

1) no pain boy, no FNP. Same goes for chaos Icons.

2) Ork warbikers do not have relentless listed

3) They are all different rules. Therefore they SHOULD have different wordings.

4) This is not a case of codex over BRB ruling. It simply says they unit has FNP. You then need to follow all rules for FNP as detaild in the USR section and IC joining page.

frgsinwntr wrote:
4) This is not a case of codex over BRB ruling. It simply says they unit has FNP. You then need to follow all rules for FNP as detaild in the USR section and IC joining page.

1) Painboy confers FNP to his unit. Check BRB for rules on FNP units. FNP isn't a unit rule - it's determined by model. Which models are in the unit? The joined IC?
2) Or, Painboy confers FNP to his unit. We decide then that the unit has a new entry that says Nobs x 10 + painboy - Special rules: Feel no pain. IC joins and FNP is not conferred onto it because of pg. 48.

Can you and Trekari really not see the other side of this coin? There is no absolute interpretation here without making a lot of assumptions. You are disagreeing on assumptions, call a judge. Done. I really haven't seen a shred of new material since page 3 of this thread, are we actually getting anywhere here?

The only people clearly in the wrong are the people who think it's clear. The poll should be evidence enough for that.

Gitzbitah wrote:

1)What happens when the Painboy dies, if the Squad simply has FNP? Do they still have it?
2) Can you show me an Ork unit that is granted a model USR by their wargear that is listed in the special rules section, where the Ork codex tells us to look for unit special rules? I have shown an example of the opposite with the MEganobz. Though I haven't checked and am no longer near my codex, I'd hazard a guess that Warbikers do not have the 'Relentless' special rule listed in their entry. If they do, then this point is indeed flawed.
3) What is your explanation for the discrepancy in wording of the USR's themselves? Why are some listed as applying to units, while others apply to models?
4) Even following the idea that an ability and special rule are interchangeable terms, wouldn't the Doc's wargear be a special rule detailed in its entry? Where this varies from the operation of the USR, should we not follow the text located in the Doc's tools? Codex is greater than BRB.

I'm afraid I will be reduced to simply questioning points brought against the argument I laid out until I return from winter break. Because of this reduction in the value of my posts, I'll limit it to no more than one a day. Before this goes any further, thank you for keeping up this opposition Trekari. I really think what we're doing here is going to be of great value to the new INAT FAQ, and I never would have delved this deep if you weren't so adamant about your position.

1) When the Painboy dies, the unit loses the FNP USR. The Painboy is no longer present, so the USR is gone. This has no impact on whether the IC ever had FNP or not, because you only check when the IC joins the unit. Pg. 48 makes no provision for subsequently re-checking whether wargear is in effect, and applying the special rule anyway. Unless specified in the rule itself, the special rule is not conferred. This is different than saying "the special rule might not be conferred, or "isn't conferred by the special rule, but might be conferred some other way." If the special rule doesn't say it, then it doesn't happen.

2) Nope. I've brought this up before as well. For instance, an IC who wears Terminator armor has the Deep Strike special rule, as well as Relentless. Belial for example, wears Terminator armor as default, yet still does not have Deep Strike listed as a Special Rule, nor Relentless. He is however a unit consisting of himself. Does this mean those aren't among his unit's special rules? Of course they are. 'Upgrade character' special rules, IMO, are not listed in the back of the book because it would create even greater arguments than we currently suffer through. It is far easier to say (and more difficult for someone to cheat another player by just showing them the back of the book) in the Painboy entry that he confers FNP to his unit, than it is to list FNP in the back and notate somewhere else (Note: You must have a Painboy for this). Snikrot is another example - his Ambush SR is most certainly applied to his unit as well, but is completely missing from the back of the book.

It is my belief that GW doesn't feel the need for redundancy. If Wargear is the symbol or means having a SR, then as long as they list the wargear, they don't list the SR. Terminator armor, Mega-Nobz armor, Bikes being Relentless, not even Turbo-Boost is listed. Deffkoptas are Jetbikes, and ALL jetbikes have Turbo-Boost, yet TB isn't listed there either. I don't believe we can count on the listing in the back of the book to be comprehensive, and in some cases, accurate. Grotsnik in the back is listed as having Fearless, yet his unit entry doesn't list Fearless. Go figure.

3) The first point I want to re-iterate is that the entire USR section of the BRB is prefaced by saying, "Many units of models in Warhammer 40,000 have unique special rules. There are, however, quite a few special rules that are shared by several units..." Clearly these are SR's that apply to units, even if that unit is just one model (in the case of ICs having Fearless, for instance), or even if the unit only has the SR because of an upgrade character.

I don't believe there can be any distinction drawn between whether the USR speaks about a model or a unit. One example of this that I can give is Furious Charge. Obviously this is a unit's special rule, because you cannot charge with just one model out of a unit - the entire unit goes with, yet they talk about the mechanic as if it was just applicable to a single model.

An even more damning argument that anything not listed the back of the book isn't a unit special rule would be Relentless. As mentioned, it is not listed for the Warbikers or the Deffkopta, yet the description of Relentless uses both the term "model" and "unit."

Relentless wrote:Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy
weapons......Note that a relentless independent character must still
abide by the assaulting limitations of any unit it has
joined, if the unit is not itself relentless.

If Relentless isn't mentioned in the back of the Codex, then the unit isn't relentless, even though all the bikes are? That interpretation wouldn't make sense at all. Going back to the possessive noun definition, any SR that the unit has, is one of the "unit's special rules."

4) Dok's Tools is not listed in the Codex as a special rule. It is listed under the Wargear section and thus is not the special rule that needs to specify what happens between ICs and units when they join. The special rule that would need the required text is FNP. There is only one location in the BRB that details this procedure, and it is found inside the Independent Character section, under a subsection simply titled "Special Rules." Because it is not titled more specifically, this subsection deals with any and all special rule sources. Dok's Tools does not vary from the normal operation of FNP, and the Ork Codex does not have FNP listed anywhere inside it with alternate text that WOULD override the BRB's definition. Simply because the wargear says 'his unit' does not mean that the requirement on pg. 48 has been lifted. Pg. 48 does not say that "Some Codices may differ," or that "wargear can override this" or anything along those lines. It demans that the special rule itself provide the text.

Beyond that, and something to list just as a reminder, the BRB calls for specifics and shows us the example that meets their idea of what "specify" means. When something is supposed to be conferred between an IC and a unit they join, the text is very, very clear. Honour of the Chapter, Litanies of Hate, Stubborn, Night Vision/Acute Senses, Fearless, One Scalpel Short of a Medpack, are all examples of the special rule itself specifying that there IS in fact some interaction between a unit and an IC regarding that rule. (taken from DA codex, BRB, and Ork Codex)

Gen. Lee, I would suggest that you not waste your time arguing this issue, because you don't have any spare time. Your first order of business to accomplish would be actually reading the rulebook - particularly the section titled "Organising A Battle." After you've done that, then perhaps you will have 'spare' time.

During deployment, you already have a Painboy who already confers FNP to his unit. Another English lesson perhaps? "Will confer at some point in the future" is not what his entry says. I should also note that it doesn't say "waits until the magic signal is received before he confers..." You purchase the Painboy, and his unit has it.

When you get back from your reading assignment, you can let me know what the rules say about your little scenario of cheating where you buy the Painboy at the last minute during deployment.

Upon looking at my Codex (Dark Angels in this case) on page 78 Army list entries.
It shows the 7 sections of a unit entry
#4 is Wargear
#5 is Special rules
I believe this shows that wargear is not special rules as they both have a distinct entry.
Can War Gear give a unit special powers and abilities? of course.
Are these powers and abilities the same as Special rules?
No even if they have the same effect, because they do not trigger the IC rules.

Also Trekari, are you capable of disagreeing with people without filling every other phrase with something extremely condescending or insulting? You might have a point in your post somewhere, but I couldn't bother to read between the attitude.
Disengage the emotions and just talk to the argument. Even if you think you're better than everyone else discussing this, we really don't need to hear about it.

Just wanted to quickly point out that Snikrot, the Painboy, and the Stormboy Boss (can't remember his name (zagstruck?) and I'm at work) do not have any of their Special Rules listed in the Army list (back of the book) because they are not IC's. I went over this with frgsinwntr, further up the thread.
If you look at the entry for each in the "Forces of .." section of the codex you will most certainly see that Ambush is clearly listed under "Special Rules". Where as the Dok's Tool's are not. They are listed as wargear.

Wanted to ask about the Terminator point that you are making Trek. Does Belial have "Terminator Armor" listed in the Wargear section of his listing? I don't have a Dark Angels codex so I can't see it for myself. I'd assume he does. Now if you check the wargear descriptions does it say anywhere that Terminator Armor grants deepstrike to the unit? I know the Space Marine Codex does not. Therefore the wargear only effects the model that has it listed in it's profile.

Just wanted to post these questions. I can of course check when I get home and correct any mistakes then.

Zero