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Really wasnt going to post here, but people keep making the same fundamental error over and over again.

Ramming is a special type of tank shock move...



Basic langauage structure here, ramming is being equated to a move. This sentence cannot be used to claim that ramming is a special type of tank shock. Using the infamous canine example: The poodle subclass and the term dog are showing that ramming is a type of move.

You cant say that ramming is any of the other adjectives in the sentence. Ramming isnt a tank for instance. Ramming isnt a shock. Ramming is a move.


So we are told that ramming is a subset of the tank shock move. This is an important distinction because by using this wording we are being told that a ram is not a subset of the entire tank shock rule set, its being equated to the move portion of that rule.


So go with it where you may, just remember the difference. A ram isnt a tank shock, its a tank shock move. Lets see where that can take us.



Sliggoth

Except that Tank Shock is defined as a move as well - a special one.

They are ALL moves.

Try again.

Actually, Tank Shock is an attack during the move phase.

Much as I hate to say it....

After nine pages, is there really a reason to continue hashing this? Neither side is convincing the other....

kirsanth wrote:Actually, Tank Shock is an attack during the move phase.

Actually, it is a move that is also an attack: Instead of Moving *normally* you make the attack: this makes it a special move that is an attack.

"When moving a tank, the player can declare that in the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally"
"To make this kind of attack"
"If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock attack"
All page 68.
"If a unit that has been attacked by tank shock"
Page 69.

Tank shock is an attack.

Saldiven wrote:Much as I hate to say it....

After nine pages, is there really a reason to continue hashing this? Neither side is convincing the other....

A reason? Not really.
But...
Since some self-repetitive members think they may win the internet.....
this will go on until the only reliable referee ( GW ) makes a decision.

Its fascinating that GW didnt address this before on the deffrolla Faq or at least when the sprues were available.
Maybe it is just " deliberate misreading" as the rules designers seem to call such issues?

kirsanth wrote:"When moving a tank, the player can declare that in the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally"
"To make this kind of attack"

So it tells you it is an attack and a special move - by dint of it being not a normal move

kirsanth wrote:"If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock attack"

So it is a MOVE.

Selective reading FTW!!!!

kirsanth wrote:Tank shock is an attack.

Yes, and it is also a MOVE.

Just because it is a move does not stop it being an attack, and vice versa. Unless you are disagreeing with it stating it is a move, in which case you are simply jist ignoring what is written.

Tank Shocks are moves (that are also an attack) and Ramming is a special type of Tank Shock move.

Everything is still at least a move, and therefore ramming is still a subset of all tank shocks that are possible. Deff rollas still work, exactlyu as they did in 4th.

Trasvi wrote:

kirsanth wrote:subset N. - a set of which all the elements are contained in another set.

Squares are a special type of (subset of) rectangle (or trapezium, parallelogram, kite, rhombus, quadrilateral, shape...)
Squares have a different side length requirement to rectangles.Rams have a different movement distance requirement to tank shocks.
Squares are still rectangles.
Rams are still tank shocks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:therefore ramming is still a subset of all tank shocks that are possible.

False, for the subset groupings.

Rectangles have no restriction/requirements on length.
Additional restrictions/requirements are allowed in a subset.
CHANGING restrictions/requirements is not allowed in a subset.

As for Move or Attack - Tank shock is an attack.
Tank shock requires movement for that attack - in fact this is probably causes more confusion than much else.
The only time the phrase "tank shock move" is used is during the Ramming rules, and this is used to let the player know that the movement made during both attacks is done in the same manner.

So, yes, I realize that there is movement required for the attack to be made.

kirsanth wrote:As for Move or Attack - Tank shock is an attack.

Why do you insist it is one or the other? You are explicitly told it is a move!

It is BOTH a move AND an attack. It is most definitley not an attack alone.

Edit Additionally you are not changing the requirements:

THere is a set called "ALL Tank Shocks"

Normal Tank Shocks are a subset of this
Special Tank Shocks, AKA Rams, are a subset of this

The superset "ALL Tank shocks" encompasses all possible requirements that both Normal and Special tank shocks can take.

According to my rulebook, page 40, "If two vehicles collide, the damage suffered by each equals D4 points per 5" (or part) of the combined speed, plus the opposing vehicle's toughness minus its own toughness."

olympia wrote:According to my rulebook, page 40, "If two vehicles collide, the damage suffered by each equals D4 points per 5" (or part) of the combined speed, plus the opposing vehicle's toughness minus its own toughness."

I see what you did there.

All right there's been pages and pages on this installment of lets bitch about ork vehicles. Closing until someone starts a new thread next week.