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Shep wrote:

Saldiven wrote:But, anyway, my point is that it's a big, fat myth to think that real, competitive games do not or should not have a sportsmanship element to them. 'Cuz they do, all over the world.

I'll agree with that... if you can see that in every example you've given, the official or referee is responsible for spotting and penalizing the infraction.

How many 15 yard penalties would there be in a game of football if the players were the ones throwing the flags?

That's a pretty good question, but it depends on where you are and what sport you're talking about. I know some pick-up basketball players who call "foul" if you even look at them when they're going at the hoop. Other guys don't call anything.

In volleyball "friendship tournaments," where no certified referees are present, you almost never see any judgment calls made by the third party team who is tasked with officiating.

Honestly, I don't know what the right answer is as far as judging Sportsmanship in 40K tournaments. My only point is that it is incontrovertible that sportsmanship is something that is definitely defined and adjudicated upon at all levels of competitive sport.

I think the problem with 40K is that the designers just plain haven't bothered to address this (among many other things) item that should be addressed if you wish to engage in serious competitive play.

I mean, heck, even Chess has rules for player conduct during tournament play. From the FIDE web site:

14. The conduct of the players

(a) Once a player has formally accepted an invitation, he must play except in cases of force majeure, such as illness or incapacity. Acceptance of another invitation is not considered to be a valid reason for withdrawal.

(b) In his reply a player may, if he wishes, mention pre-existing medical conditions such as diabetes and special dietary requirements.

(c) All the participants should be dressed in a suitable manner.

(d) A player who does not wish to continue a game and leaves without resigning or notifying the arbiter is discourteous. He may be penalised, at the discretion of the CA, for poor sportsmanship.

(e) A player may speak only as permitted in the Laws of Chess and Tournament Regulations.

(f) All complaints concerning the behaviour of players or captains must be made to the arbiter. A player is not permitted to complain directly to his opponent.



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sourclams wrote:Three months ago playing with a Deffrolla ramming a vehicle would have made you a WAAC powergaming jerk in about 50% of the gaming circles of the Dakka membership if those polls were at all accurate.

Now it's the norm. "Rules flukes" tend to be declared at the discretion of the least-powerful-interpretation crowd. Looking at how Deffrollas, Lash of Submission, and Jaws of the World Wolf GW's FAQ record tends to lean toward the more powerful interpretation.

But, anyway, my point is that it's a big, fat myth to think that real, competitive games do not or should not have a sportsmanship element to them. 'Cuz they do, all over the world.

As Shep already pointed out, what you're equating to sportsmanship is actually part of the rules in professional sports. When a penalty/personal foul is committed, it is not up to the players to self-police, but rather the event judge or referee.

But GW has left the entire issue of Sportsmanship completely up in the air with their lack of attention to it in their rules. As I mentioned previously, this is another example of how GW has not made any serious attempt to design the game for competition.

I assume by many of these posts that the precedent that virtually EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME/SPORT IN THE WORLD has set that sportsmanship is important and should be adjudicated should be set aside merely because GW hasn't bothered to address it in their rules?

Saldiven wrote:

But, man, I hate to say it, but even "real" sports have Sportsmanship rules.

In volleyball, if you yell an obscenity at a ref or an opponent (or even your own team mate or yourself), the referee is instructed by the rules to issue a yellow card. This can result in a loss of a point; this definitely can affect the outcome of a game.

In baseball, throwing at an opponent can get you kicked out of the game (whether you hit them or not).

In football, Unsportsmanlike Conduct (including such little things as excessive celebration) results in a 15 yard penalty.

In tennis, "racket abuse" is considered, among other things, to be "unsportsmanlike." This can be punished by a loss of a point, or eventually expulsion.

In basketball, unsportsmanlike conduct results in a technical foul and a free throw for the opponent.

The only difference between how real competitive sports and 40K tournaments address "Sportsmanship" is that real sports have a referee. I understand that having an impartial referee at every game in a 40K tournament is impractical, but is it really hard to just not be a D!ck to your opponent? Personally, that's all I ask of my opponent.

But, anyway, my point is that it's a big, fat myth to think that real, competitive games do not or should not have a sportsmanship element to them. 'Cuz they do, all over the world.

If you yell an obscenity at a ref or your opponent in a tournament, you'll be asked to stop or go away, the same as anywhere.
If you throw stuff at someone, then it's a form of assault. If someone starts chucking their GUO at me, I'm not calling for a ref, I'm calling the cops.
For football, the unsportsmanlike conduct is decided by the ref, an impartial party. You cannot ask opposing sides to judge each other. Furthermore, this deals with the problem in-game, as opposed to knocking them down a few placings after the game.
If my opponent breaks their minis in frustration, they now lack a mini to put on the table and will possibly be kicked out, depending on how much of a scene he makes.
For basketball, it's the same as football.

Even if you're not a dick to your opponent, you're playing with a good list, or you're beating them too hard, or you're making use of cover and would allocation. Nothing against the rules, but if your opponent personally considers it cheap, they'll dock you. It's as if using a fancy manoeuvre in Basketball counted as unsportsmanlike conduct. How do you think football would be if you couldn't call your opponent out on picking up the ball for fear of losing 15m?

Pika_power wrote:Please explain. If I'm running a tournament of 240 people, how do I get enough manpower to check every score and go and have a nice heart-to-heart chat with the chipmunkers? Ideally, I'd have a judge on every table, watching the game hawk-eyed. But that's impractical.

In most competitive games judges will roam tables and then will get called over to watch if there is a rules dispute or if somebody is potentially cheating. Judges don't have to monitory every game at all times and they don't have to monitor games where players are getting along without issue. They also don't need to monitor the bottom tables unless there is a major dispute. It doesn't matter if the guy cheats his way to 65th place does it?

The problem with this in 40k is that if you feel your opponent is cheating or isn't following the rules calling over a judge can be considered offensive and get your sportsmanship score docked. That doesn't happen in Chess or Magic: The Gathering. It happens all the time in 40k.

@saldiven

GW doesn't need to implement these rules, a TO could very easily.

However, notice that these rules don't effect the outcome of the game, they are just there to ensure people play nice.

Totally fine imo, as long as they don't effect the game score.


Its gotten to the point where people are scared to call their opponents out for fear of a loss of soft scores.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Pika_power wrote:Please explain. If I'm running a tournament of 240 people, how do I get enough manpower to check every score and go and have a nice heart-to-heart chat with the chipmunkers? Ideally, I'd have a judge on every table, watching the game hawk-eyed. But that's impractical.

In most competitive games judges will roam tables and then will get called over to watch if there is a rules dispute or if somebody is potentially cheating. Judges don't have to monitory every game at all times and they don't have to monitor games where players are getting along without issue. They also don't need to monitor the bottom tables unless there is a major dispute. It doesn't matter if the guy cheats his way to 65th place does it?

The problem with this in 40k is that if you feel your opponent is cheating or isn't following the rules calling over a judge can be considered offensive and get your sportsmanship score docked. That doesn't happen in Chess or Magic: The Gathering. It happens all the time in 40k.

Actually, in Chess, you can be penalized in tournaments for doing obnoxious stuff. Heck, in Chess, you're not even supposed to speak to your opponent except for specific game things, like saying, "Check."

The difference is that there are rules that address this in Chess competition, but none that address it in the BrB. Then, for some reason, if a tournament tries to implement some sort of Sportsmanship monitoring, some people get all up in arms.

Now, I do get it. The big problem is that one player really shouldn't rate the sportsmanship of another. There is a conflict of interest inherent in such a system. The best system would be to have at the minimum one disinterested judge per every 6 tables who moved unobtrusively between them and listened in to the game play while keeping notes on the players and their interactions. The absolute best would be to have one judge for every table. Unfortunately, that's impractical.

But, just because adjudicating Sportsmanship is difficult doesn't mean that such adjudications have no place in the game.


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Timmah wrote:@saldiven

GW doesn't need to implement these rules, a TO could very easily.

However, notice that these rules don't effect the outcome of the game, they are just there to ensure people play nice.

Totally fine imo, as long as they don't effect the game score.


Its gotten to the point where people are scared to call their opponents out for fear of a loss of soft scores.

Actually, they can and do affect the outcome of the game. The sanctions a Chess judge can levy can include forfeiture of a match. In most sports, violation of Sportsmanship rules can directly put points on the board, make it easier for the opponent to score, or remove players from the game. It's hard to argue against the fact that these things definitely do have a direct affect on the outcome of a game.

Timmah wrote:I don't get why playing nice is even a needed requirement.

As long as your opponent plays by the rules it shouldn't matter what he is like to play.

Maybe some people think people who are overly fake nice at a tournament are just as annoying as people who don't care what you think about them.

If you want to play a fun game, play casual.

If you want to have fun because its a competition, then play in a competitive environment (a tournament).


Wow, what a concept.

I'm curious as to where the connection between being polite and being "fake nice" comes from? I do take issue with the generalization that people who treat others with respect are "fake". Some people are polite and courteous because they were raised to be or believe that's how they should act in a public setting. How is that fake? What thought process makes you believe that no one can be genuinely courteous to another person?

I use a fairly simple set of guidelines when I deal with people. To me, respect is a privelage. I will give it to you without any hesitation, but if you don't return the favor, I can rescind it just as easily. I treat people with courtesy because I would like to be treated as such. But, unfortunately, according to your logic, I'm just being "fake nice", not becaues of my belief structure.

I pose a very simple and honest question. Do you conduct yourself any different when you're at a tournament with sportsmanship than you do at one without? I don't see why not being scored on it makes it more acceptable to be a bad sport.

Actually, in Chess, you can be penalized in tournaments for doing obnoxious stuff. Heck, in Chess, you're not even supposed to speak to your opponent except for specific game things, like saying, "Check."

The difference is that there are rules that address this in Chess competition, but none that address it in the BrB. Then, for some reason, if a tournament tries to implement some sort of Sportsmanship monitoring, some people get all up in arms.

I'm not saying that people should be able to be horrible jerks and cheat their way to victory (fudge inches, touch models in the wrong phase or turn, argue about LOS constantly, take back moves). What I'm saying is that if my opponent acts that way I should be able to call over a judge to closely observe the game and not have to fear my opponent docking my soft scores in retaliation.

So yeah, if poor sportsmanship is defined as cheating then it can impact actual battle results if a person does it with reckless abandon, but in 40k just something as simple as calling over a judge can poorly impact YOUR sportsmanship score and that's a real problem.

Sports rules as well as chess rules are not the same as sportsmanship.

If you break a rule in sports you are cheating and penalized just like chess and just like 40k.

There are no sportsmanship rules in sports. You don't lose 5 points if you don't shake hands after a football game. Sheesh.

@zomro
Plenty of people are nice and pleasant at tournaments. However its not like I know the person I am playing or will ever even see him again. So if I treat him like I would one of my friends who I have known for 10-20 years, well I am obviously exaggerating and being fake nice.

Timmah wrote:

@zomro
Plenty of people are nice and pleasant at tournaments. However its not like I know the person I am playing or will ever even see him again. So if I treat him like I would one of my friends who I have known for 10-20 years, well I am obviously exaggerating and being fake nice.

That's a bit of a stretch, though, isn't it? Who treats strangers the same as they do long time friends? Why would you ever do such a thing in the first place? It makes no sense. But, at least we have the definition of "fake nice", and I agree that is a bit odd for someone to do. But, how does this affect sportsmanship in general? Because earlier, you were saying that sportsmanship is just being "fake nice", but now you've defined it as something that doesn't actually fit in the base definition of sportsmanlike conduct.

Timmah wrote:Sports rules as well as chess rules are not the same as sportsmanship.

If you break a rule in sports you are cheating and penalized just like chess and just like 40k.

There are no sportsmanship rules in sports. You don't lose 5 points if you don't shake hands after a football game. Sheesh.

@zomro
Plenty of people are nice and pleasant at tournaments. However its not like I know the person I am playing or will ever even see him again. So if I treat him like I would one of my friends who I have known for 10-20 years, well I am obviously exaggerating and being fake nice.

40K is not a sport though. That analogy is false. The whole game involves randomness and ambiguity.
It would be better associated with a ballroom competition or such where etiquette is a big deal.

Frazzled wrote:

Timmah wrote:Sports rules as well as chess rules are not the same as sportsmanship.

If you break a rule in sports you are cheating and penalized just like chess and just like 40k.

There are no sportsmanship rules in sports. You don't lose 5 points if you don't shake hands after a football game. Sheesh.

@zomro
Plenty of people are nice and pleasant at tournaments. However its not like I know the person I am playing or will ever even see him again. So if I treat him like I would one of my friends who I have known for 10-20 years, well I am obviously exaggerating and being fake nice.

40K is not a sport though. That analogy is false. The whole game involves randomness and ambiguity.
It would be better associated with a ballroom competition or such where etiquette is a big deal.

Hahaha...well, a ballroom competition might not be the best comparison. I'm was training for competition in International Standard until my partner moved away to finish school last year. It's surprisingly cut-throat at the highest levels, and it would make you laugh to hear how catty some of the competitors are

They just don't let you see it through the painted on phony smiles on the dance floor....

Hrm...on second thought, that might be exactly the best comparison to some 40K tournaments......

Actually in football there is quite a bit of ambiguity in rules as well.

I have heard announcers and refs make up rules on the spot to justify their ruling. Even when the rulebook says otherwise.

This just in! There is always some ambiguity in every competition.


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Zomro wrote:

Timmah wrote:

@zomro
Plenty of people are nice and pleasant at tournaments. However its not like I know the person I am playing or will ever even see him again. So if I treat him like I would one of my friends who I have known for 10-20 years, well I am obviously exaggerating and being fake nice.

That's a bit of a stretch, though, isn't it? Who treats strangers the same as they do long time friends? Why would you ever do such a thing in the first place? It makes no sense. But, at least we have the definition of "fake nice", and I agree that is a bit odd for someone to do. But, how does this affect sportsmanship in general? Because earlier, you were saying that sportsmanship is just being "fake nice", but now you've defined it as something that doesn't actually fit in the base definition of sportsmanlike conduct.

They do it so that they can try for max sportsmanship scores. You are forced to be overtly friendly at tournaments because of soft scores. Personally this annoys the crap outa me.

Thats why there are Hard Boyz Tourneys now, so you can be as unfriendly as you want. Bathing is strictly optional as well.

1 tournament a year? Also, I never said unfriendly Frazzled.

I know you don't like me, but could you at least stop putting words in my mouth and then acting like I'm some kinda jerk for saying said thing.

Timmah wrote:1 tournament a year? Also, I never said unfriendly Frazzled.

I know you don't like me, but could you at least stop putting words in my mouth and then acting like I'm some kinda jerk for saying said thing.

Didst thou not seeist the holy orkmoticons O young one?
You're wrong on all counts there Timmah. How could I dislike someone who's board name is my favorite Southpark character and I have to stop myself from blurting out TIMMAH!!!

I'm just disagreeing with you in line with the original post intent-an argument for comp.

timmah...

Timmah wrote:
They do it so that they can try for max sportsmanship scores. You are forced to be overtly friendly at tournaments because of soft scores. Personally this annoys the crap outa me.

I tank the scores of people that are so blatantly trying to be cordial. They annoy me just as much, or perhaps more so, than TFG.

The argument for and against sportsmanship in tournaments is the same one:

People are stupid.

Timmah wrote:
There are no sportsmanship rules in sports. You don't lose 5 points if you don't shake hands after a football game. Sheesh.

Someone tell this to the Head Coach of the Ravens, who lost 15 yards(and arguably the game) to an Unsportsmanlike Conduct call from the refs.

Akin to the TO throwing somebody out for excessive profanity.

Sports/Comp the way it's implemented in 40k would be more similar to Bill Belichick docking Tom Coughlin 1 Field Goal for not congratulating him, or something.

More akin to docking someone a field goal for asking for a ruling to be reviewed by the refs...

9 pages of whining about sportsmanship scores? Really??

If you don't like it, complain to the people who run the tournament and make the rules/scoring system. Talking about it on here ain't getting nothing done.

Is it needed? Not really. Can you deal with it if you want to win? Sure.

Ironhide wrote:9 pages of whining about sportsmanship scores? Really??

If you don't like it, complain to the people who run the tournament and make the rules/scoring system. Talking about it on here ain't getting nothing done.

Is it needed? Not really. Can you deal with it if you want to win? Sure.

9 pages that you didn't bother to read, apparently.

Reading is hard.

The problem is that all the examples for sportsmanship are based on complete fallacy. Show me a game or sport where, rather than the referee handing out a punishment, the opponents sit down afterward and score each other on a scale without any definition.

Why is there an assumption that with no sportsmanship the world would fall apart? Just man up and confront someone if you have a problem with them. Kind of a useful skill for life in general:

Frazzled wrote:Didst thou not seeist the holy orkmoticons O young one?
You're wrong on all counts there Timmah. How could I dislike someone who's board name is my favorite Southpark character and I have to stop myself from blurting out TIMMAH!!!

I'm just disagreeing with you in line with the original post intent-an argument for comp.

timmah...

@Frazzled: Doesn't look like disagreement. Looks like you were acting out of line and someone had the guts to stand up for themselves and call you on it. Also looks like a forum moderator is encouraging a behaviour where people post to fill a thread they do not agree with by means of comments that do absolutely nothing to move the issue forward either way.

Ironhide wrote:9 pages of whining about sportsmanship scores? Really??

If you don't like it, complain to the people who run the tournament and make the rules/scoring system. Talking about it on here ain't getting nothing done.

Is it needed? Not really. Can you deal with it if you want to win? Sure.

I'm sure there are TOs mixed in with this thread, so it does make sense to have the conversation.

(My earlier inane response not included, of course)

Fearspect wrote:The problem is that all the examples for sportsmanship are based on complete fallacy. Show me a game or sport where, rather than the referee handing out a punishment, the opponents sit down afterward and score each other on a scale without any definition.

I've played in a few tournaments where there was a defined checklist to determine the sportsmanship score.

There was a TFG there that was still giving people hideous scores when they beat him. The bottom line is that more active participation from a TO would eliminate the need for sportsmanship scores. Anyone can tell if someone is being a Knob after watching a game for a minute or two.

Fearspect wrote:

@Frazzled: Doesn't look like disagreement. Looks like you were acting out of line and someone had the guts to stand up for themselves and call you on it. Also looks like a forum moderator is encouraging a behaviour where people post to fill a thread they do not agree with by means of comments that do absolutely nothing to move the issue forward either way.

Looks like you don't have a clue and can't handle when someone disagrees with you and addresses the actual topic of the thread.

Frazzled wrote:

Fearspect wrote:

@Frazzled: Doesn't look like disagreement. Looks like you were acting out of line and someone had the guts to stand up for themselves and call you on it. Also looks like a forum moderator is encouraging a behaviour where people post to fill a thread they do not agree with by means of comments that do absolutely nothing to move the issue forward either way.

Looks like you don't have a clue and can't handle when someone disagrees with you and addresses the actual topic of the thread.

Just because you end your posts with emoticons doesn't mean you're not being a dick.

Danny Internets wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Fearspect wrote:

@Frazzled: Doesn't look like disagreement. Looks like you were acting out of line and someone had the guts to stand up for themselves and call you on it. Also looks like a forum moderator is encouraging a behaviour where people post to fill a thread they do not agree with by means of comments that do absolutely nothing to move the issue forward either way.

Looks like you don't have a clue and can't handle when someone disagrees with you and addresses the actual topic of the thread.

Just because you end your posts with emoticons doesn't mean you're not being a dick.

Same applies to you boyo.

Frazzled wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Fearspect wrote:

@Frazzled: Doesn't look like disagreement. Looks like you were acting out of line and someone had the guts to stand up for themselves and call you on it. Also looks like a forum moderator is encouraging a behaviour where people post to fill a thread they do not agree with by means of comments that do absolutely nothing to move the issue forward either way.

Looks like you don't have a clue and can't handle when someone disagrees with you and addresses the actual topic of the thread.

Just because you end your posts with emoticons doesn't mean you're not being a dick.

Same applies to you boyo.

Glad to see the use of irony wasn't lost on you.