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2014/01/07 00:28:13
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/07 00:28:54
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/01/07 00:28:31
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
They were saving Camo for the IG and Tau...
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2014/01/07 00:33:47
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
I want the space marines to get away from this dark romanticism and this glorification of war and go back to being soldiers fighting a war.
Because even the Knights of the crusades were not like that. If you offered them honor over money. The Knight would not hesitate to chop your head off and steal the money.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/01/07 00:53:05
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/01/07 01:45:46
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
What I have
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2014/01/07 01:51:11
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
That as well. Having a miniature star in your back is going to produce a monster of a heat signature. The ceramite plates probably work both ways- both soaking up lasers harmlessly and absorbing the heat of their reactor.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/01/07 04:25:53
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Kojiro wrote: There's an old Bolo story where similar troops are deployed at the edge of a solar system at speed and travel for hours until they hit the orbital station. They're so small they evade detection and once they're on the hull they're a nightmare to remove. I see no reason not to deploy marines as such. Imagine being some repair crew sent to investigate a hull breach in sector 204 of some giant ship only to find a freaking *space marine* lurking there? Imagine being a captain of a ship and having a dozen reports of hull breaches come in at once and then realising there was a squad of space marines running rampant in your corridors, knowing they were working their way either to you or your engine room...
I think the environmental aspect of marine armour isn't nearly as utilised as it should be. At the very least gas should be all over the show against any enemy that breathes. Orks may be tough but even they can't breathe with lungs full of blood.
Yeah the enviromental systems are drastically under used. And whatever happened to Camo space marines? Oh yeah Girlyman said camo was not honorable. Jerk...
I think the link is broken nothing came up. What annoyed me about the Camo retcon was that their were chapters that had alternate camo schemes some chapters even having camo worked into their normal heraldry back in RT.
But yeah the camo retcon was dumb. Thats why my chapter adopts camo, and they use camo so much they actually forgotten their original color scheme because, why would need to use it? Apart from Ceremonial Purposes?
Not really, with the tech in W40K, camo won't do much when everyone but guardsmen run around with augmented HUDs that automatically target enemies and spot them for everyone else to see, etc. Camo only makes sense if your normal chapter colors aren't the typical dull hues with modern W40K and have bright pastel colors, such as the Imperial Fists or the Howling Griffons. Otherwise their sensors will simply tag enemies and render any camo mute when they can simply scan for lifesigns, local metals, movement, etc.
The kind of camo Astartes really need to use is paints that better absorb heat radiation to damped their appearance on devices similar to radar. Camo just isn't going to do anything really useful for your average eight fool tall Astartes when all the enemies that pose a threat to his continued survival either have augmented vision or hyper evolved senses capable of smelling him over a mile away.
Or infra-red. I would think Powered Armor generates a lot of heat, since, you know, it has a mini power plant built into it. Maybe that's why the marines tend to have such gaudy heraldry - to deflect radiation.
That as well. Having a miniature star in your back is going to produce a monster of a heat signature. The ceramite plates probably work both ways- both soaking up lasers harmlessly and absorbing the heat of their reactor.
TiamatRoar wrote: I thought even basic Imperial Guard camo was mad crazy useful on the table top.
They are, and the Imperium has other tech to remove heat signatures from the human body as well (though if they're good enough to remove power armor heat signature, I don't know).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/01/07 22:16:02
Subject: Re:Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2014/01/07 23:09:34
Subject: Re:Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
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Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsquential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/07 23:24:38
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2014/01/07 23:49:02
Subject: Re:Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsquential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
You have to remember they're a pretty much an army of distilled Captain Americas.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/01/07 23:49:16
Subject: Re:Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Vaktathi wrote: In response to the OP, as is, the Space Marines don't work at all once you start to really look at them in the numbers that are described as existing. They really do need a rethinking, as is, for any number of reasons, they work largely simply "just because" and start looking really silly with any sort of scrutiny applied.
Yeah... Just like Tyranids.
Or Orks.
Et.c.
It's just part of how the setting works.
The Space Marines are particularly bad however. You can handwave a lot of stuff, or just attribute it to sciences we do not yet understand, but with the Space Marines they are just so limited numerically that they be a completely inconsequential military element, equal in utility only to a few hours worth of IG recruitment in their entirety, and so rare that they'd only be where they're needed in the rarest of circumstances. Attrition would destroy them utterly in years (and even then only because they spend so much time in transit, otherwise it'd be months or weeks), and would be utterly incapable of fighting the conventional battles they're all too often described as fighting as there's just not enough of them to cover enough ground to prevent encirclement and destruction by even relatively small opposing forces.
This is to say nothing of having to manage planets, mini-empires, fleets, crew vehicles, etc.
That and distrubstion of resources, maintaining trade routes/trade pacts, ensuring hardware is getting to the right places on time. I've played a fair few games where you have to micromanage all that stuff and it is just a head ache at best.
Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
You have to remember they're a pretty much an army of distilled Captain Americas.
They are flawed. They were a temporary solution to the problem. There was a next stage after the space marines. So they are not as an all powerful creations as they once were. They have gotten weaker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/07 23:52:24
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/01/07 23:59:49
Subject: Re:Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Asherian Command wrote: Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
It's not a miniature star, but it is referred to as a micro fusion reactor and sometimes an atomic chain stack. Occasionally (such as in the RPG) they're even said to be functionally limitless, never needing recharging. How much they can actually put out at once is questionable but it's enough to power the suit so it's considerable. The real question is why marines don't have a laser back up weapon attached to their helmets or wrists. A point and fire laser attached to your head, while not the most powerful weapon, would have to be useful on a battlefield where melee fights occur, even if it's just to stun that ork who is all up in your face or that third 'gaunt trying to get in from above.
Asherian Command wrote: Anyway I have to disagree, where does it say that it takes a miniature star to power up a Space Marine's Suit? I thought it was a kinetic generator which is powered and stores energy from movement.
It's not a miniature star, but it is referred to as a micro fusion reactor and sometimes an atomic chain stack. Occasionally (such as in the RPG) they're even said to be functionally limitless, never needing recharging. How much they can actually put out at once is questionable but it's enough to power the suit so it's considerable. The real question is why marines don't have a laser back up weapon attached to their helmets or wrists. A point and fire laser attached to your head, while not the most powerful weapon, would have to be useful on a battlefield where melee fights occur, even if it's just to stun that ork who is all up in your face or that third 'gaunt trying to get in from above.
Because Grimdark.
GW does not want to overload space marines with gear that might increase their survival chances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/08 00:02:22
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/01/08 00:04:35
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Wyzilla wrote:
You have to remember they're a pretty much an army of distilled Captain Americas.
And he only works because everyone aims at his shield, and he never seems to get targeted by crew served weapons or heavy artillery
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2014/01/08 00:58:40
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Orks make more sense than Space Marines BECAUSE of their numbers, however. To me, Orks are one of the factions that make the MOST sense in 40k (the other being IG).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/08 00:58:46
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/01/08 01:02:39
Subject: Should the Space Marines Role Be Re-Emphasized?
Melissia is right. There is a profound disconnection between the number of time space marines would see combat and their place in the fluff. They make up maybe 50% of 40 armies but would make up less than .001% of troops on 40K battlefields.
Well I did say less than 0.001%... I was merely trying to illustrate the orders of magnitude difference between the frequency of game marines in combat and fluff marines.
But then I suppose it's like procedural crime shows- for every gripping CSI/courtroom 'show' there's a doze 'Yep, prints here, got him' shows we don't see.
Don't include the PDF. Because Rarely have I heard them actually holding the line.
That's because you obviously don't read the right books. In Planetkill, there's several stories concerning PDF troopers heroically throwing back the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
Hell, in Titanicus, one of the main characters is a PDF trooper who fights on despite losing half of her platoon to an ambush during their call up, and fighting against Dark Mechanicus hunter-killer servitors. The main character who saves the day, in fact, is a PDF tank commander who lost his tank like halfway through but soldiered on regardless.
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