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Space Marine Codex does show permission for a bike weapon to be swapped, but in context is a specific permission.

WarOne wrote:The TL Bolter is a weapon fitted to a wargear piece. It is still a weapon however.

Which is entirely irrelevant. Unless you can find permission to swap something that isn't wargear and isn't yours.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, your claim is based on a set of wargear not still being wargear. Bolters are wargear, being attached to another piece of wargear doesn't stop them existing on the model.

According to the actual rules and not nos40k, it does matter - as I've proven. And you've declined to cite rules that disagree with that, instead preferring to attack me.

You also made another assertion - that permission to alter the model isn't permission to alter part of the model. Have you backed tht up yet?

No, that's not what I said. It may be what you decided to interpret, but that's not what I said.

"It could be carrying one or more shooting...weapons" page 3. The model is carrying the weapon, the weapon is part of the model. Case closed.

Talk about selective reading.

RAW the bolter ON the model IS on the model, and thus can be swapped. Unless, of course, you can prove your so far unsupported assertion that being a part of wargear restricts the permission we have already demonstrated.

Unsupported?
You have permission to swap a weapon you have. You do not have the bolter - your wargear does.
You can assume a transitive ownership all you want but you've utterly failed to prove it exists.

You have not made any attempt to do so so far, despite direct requests to do so. Please, do so.

That's incorrect - I have supported my argument.

You've again declined to actually quote the support from page 3 from your argument. Despite repeating (likely) dozens of times in this thread alone that page 3 absolutely states that everything physically part of the model belongs to the model, when I asked for you to quote the rule you've declined repeatedly.

Any further attempts to cite page 3 without a quote will be considered trolling or lying - you know it doesn't support what you said and have refused to admit it.

rigeld2 wrote:

WarOne wrote:The TL Bolter is a weapon fitted to a wargear piece. It is still a weapon however.

Which is entirely irrelevant. Unless you can find permission to swap.

On that point I agree the CSM codex fails to assert a specific allowance for this and Scout bikes in the Space Marine Codex does allow for a bike's weapons to be swapped out. But it does mention the bike as a unique item and the change specific to that item.

Liturgies - I have asked for a rule showing such specific permission is needed. Provide it. I am altering the model and have permission to do so, find where that permission is restricted.

And yes, I won't treat things inconsistently. Your desire to prove a point is hilarious.

Will you now provide a relevant rule? Anything? I've demolished every assertion you have made so far, so will you finally admit your assertion I lacks a rules base?

Rigeld - so the model isn't carrying a shooting weapon? That's odd, I could swear it is

You have absolutely not supported your position. You absolutely DID claim that the bolter is not part of the model, and that page three quote states otherwise (and no, "selective reading" is not a rebuttal. You know it, and are clinging to anything now) so that is wrong.

You also claimed. As liturgies has, that permission to alter a model is not permission to alter part of the mod, when the weapon is part of another piece of wargear.

You have not provided a single rules quote proving that. None. Again, PROVE IT. I asked you more than once to state your rule requiring this, and you haven't provided it, I asked you to link to where you did quote it, because surely you would not repeatedly break the tenets of this forum, but no, you just ASSERT you have supported it.

Well, you haven't. You are , by definition, trolling. Your refusal to comply with the rules of the forum is noted. Do not pretend to know what I think, your arrogance is stunning..

Nos, what does the wargear section of the description of the profile say? That's point 5 page 90. "details the weapons and equipment the model is armed with" so the tl isn't listed there at any point, the model isn't "armed" with a weapon, it's armed with a piece of wargear that isn't a weapon but includes one. (that's page 66) So some weapons are listed in the wargear section and others, specifically ones that are parts of wargear are not... why is this? Does this not make the different to you as it makes them damn different to me and what the rules say about them?

Rigeld's arrogance isn't stunning, as you're hardly stunned. Don't pretend you understand our motivations and purchase a better dictionary for your definitions.

Looks like an agree to disagree issue. I'll just continue on then.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so the model isn't carrying a shooting weapon? That's odd, I could swear it is

Given that I've shown a rule stating exactly that...

And given that you again decline to actually support your argument outside of misquoting page 3 (because page literally does not say what you asserted it says) I'd like to thank you for conceding.

All I'm conceding is that the model still has a twin-linked bolter that can be swapped out. The biker entry only gives express permission for troopers to swap out gear. Characters get that permission from the wargear list in the codex, which says you can swap their weapons. The weapons they have. On the bikes, even.

Pretty cut and dry.

I think it's about time to lock this one down for now. I would recommend that everyone take a step back from their keyboard, take a few deep breaths, and remind themselves that we're talking about toy soldiers here.

Moving on.