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Denilsta wrote: I have to say this is boarding on a witch hunt now, the scale (sorted), the materials (sorted) and now it's the rules and the estimated production costs...
The point is, this is a KS, there is always risks when ever you buy into them. I have been badly burnt twice with SW and Drake but as an adult I look at a new KS and make a decision. People like Artimus have raised valid points but it is now just flogging a dead horse.....let people back it, if it goes wrong after reading all the comments well it's their money to lose, and there's nothing worse than the nerd rage that usually follows poorly executed KSer's!
I know a lot of you have said you are not going to buy into this KS, but you have all clearly made your point (repeatedly), move on to a KS you can support positively, or even a different KS you can kick in the proverbial nuts.
You do realize much of it has been "I want to back but need more info," right?
There's no "nerd rage" here. Simply well reasoned concerns based on previous KS experience.
At the risk of sounding lazy (read the main page & FAQ but I can't bring myself to read through KS comments any more...) are, or will there be, options to purchase the characters as they get unlocked? Fenn has been unlocked, for instance, but I see no way to buy him as an add-on so it would seem as though you can only get them by pledging at certain levels?
Denilsta wrote: I have to say this is boarding on a witch hunt now, the scale (sorted), the materials (sorted) and now it's the rules and the estimated production costs...
The point is, this is a KS, there is always risks when ever you buy into them. I have been badly burnt twice with SW and Drake but as an adult I look at a new KS and make a decision. People like Artimus have raised valid points but it is now just flogging a dead horse.....let people back it, if it goes wrong after reading all the comments well it's their money to lose, and there's nothing worse than the nerd rage that usually follows poorly executed KSer's!
I know a lot of you have said you are not going to buy into this KS, but you have all clearly made your point (repeatedly), move on to a KS you can support positively, or even a different KS you can kick in the proverbial nuts.
You do realize much of it has been "I want to back but need more info," right?
There's no "nerd rage" here. Simply well reasoned concerns based on previous KS experience.
Your comments, however, are less than helpful.
But repetition of the same points are helpful? It's true what you said about people asking for more info and it has been given, either look backwards a few pages on here or scroll down the comments section. This is going beyond helpful advice now and as you say it is now less then helpful but certain people just want to drag this on. Plus if you are going to pick two words out of my entire post at least put it in context I used it in...look at the fall out on Mr McVey Defience, Mantic and CMoN to name a few for poorly executed KS upon completion, as I clearly stated.
Alpharius, I honestly think that's all wishful thinking.
This company had no idea what material they were using, so they certainly haven't lined up WGF, who have a huge queue and (as noted) aren't taking on new customers.
They may be hoping to use another company that doesn't normally do wargaming miniatures. Hawk Wargames did this (I think even in the UK?), but they have more experience and simpler geometry on their small scale vehicles, that meant it wasn't as complicated of a mold as a normal miniature requires.
The creators here can say all day long that they're doing characters in HIPS, but I only know of one company that does that- Games Workshop, and only just recently.
Chances are much better that they're somewhat confused about materials or costs, or how difficult and expensive it is to make a model without undercuts that can have an injection mold made for use with high impact polystyrene.
I personally think folks have pushed them into saying "Yes, it's HIPS!" when they cannot realistically do this. Speculating that they have outside funding is just that... speculation, and given the amount of planning they had on how to produce these miniatures in plastic (not much at all) I highly doubt they have that funding.
In short, I really doubt these will be made in HIPS, and even if the units are I think there's basically no chance the characters will be, regardless of what they say. Trying to rationalize and explain how this could work out when it really just can't is a fool's errand, imo.
So, I would personally not suspend disbelief, and if you are pledging, put in a small enough pledge that it won't hurt you if it turns out not to be in the material you're hoping, and which they kind of had their arm twisted into committing to. That, or be satisfied with PVC or the like. But I see no reasonable explanation for how they can do all that they are saying in high impact polystyrene, and I don't think we should pretend that it is likely they can or will... regardless of the promises they have been forced into by backers ramping up their expectations.
Unfortunately, it's much more likely that they do not have any supplier yet lined up (imo) given that they just now committed to the material. Would love to be wrong, of course...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 20:22:41
paulson games wrote: Maybe they are planning on using Panda like Ninja Division has been for their Robotech Plastics, which of course has gone swimmingly well.
gak that's Panda doing the RBT figs? This explains a lot.
Wow, they have really shortened those stretch goals!
I'm with RiTides, I doubt they have outside funding, there would be zero reason not to mention it, it's a huge confidence booster and they are clearly doing everything they can to get people on board. My guess owuld also be that there was so much hoopla that they decided to just say it and be damned *grin*
Has anyone actually asked directly 'Are 'all' miniatures going to be HIPS? And by HIPS you definitely mean GW- style plastic sprues?'.
Kingdom Death are doing characters in HIPS, but it took them a 'much' bigger kickstarter and a long time to start doing that. You pretty much have to be guaranteed x sales of a single figure and there's only a handful of companies who can do that.
As for the Witch Hunt comments, I keep talking about it bcause I'm actually interested I rarely follow kickstarters to this extent and I actually started doing so because I was very much interested in the product and would have signed on for the shop pledge 'minimum'. possibly multipl shop pledges, if it had been 35mm figures in HIPS. I backed out at the scale thing but it took so much work from numerous people to actually get a straight answer about that that I was now hooked into following the malarkey
(Plus it really is interesting to watch a controversial kickstarter unfold and see the dynamics and watch the comments. I mean the latest one is calling the rules 'refreshing', which is possibly clinically insane *grin*)
Alpharius wrote: It does, but that's what they've said they'll be doing!
Though Cyp's comments about WGF not taking new customers is a bit troubling.
Maybe WGF has changed this stance recently, and is taking new customers?
There are more companies in china than just WGF that can do polysytrene casting...
Right, of course, but someone said they were actually talking to WGF, so...
Sure, maybe they got shut out and are now using...someone else.
The person who said that was the biggest comments cheerleader. And he said that he got that answer in an email. For the record I have also talked to Wargames Factory. This does not in any way mean they are currently making minis for me nor that they ever will
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 20:31:04
There's other options out there. I was looking into a company called Protolabs recently for plastic stuff. They're good for lower amounts of stuff, and had cheaper mold prices, but you have to do all of the CAD files yourself and they have to be all finished and ready to go with no undercuts or anything. It's all automated.
So I decided to stick with Zbrush and resin models
I really like what I see, and I'm a huge fan of Scale 75 models even if I fail to do them justice. I want Scale Games to succeed, and honestly, I could throw £500 at this easily... I just have doubts at this stage. Perhaps one for the card with chargeback.
Alpharius wrote: All of this really does make me think that they've got money from somewhere else funding a lot of this, and the Kickstarter campaign is a "bonus", and interest free loan, a, dare I say it?, kick start to the project.
Some one or thing may have said, "Raise £90K and I'll back you on this project with £(X) matching funds" or something similar.
Otherwise, it is hard to see how they'll be able to afford all these molds.
Unless Wargames Factory offers really good deals?
At the potential 'cost' of project delays?
If they were taking new customers (They are not, thanks, cyp) WGF seem to be a company that is high in demand. They could charge top dollar and beyond.
Panda Plastic is one of the big names in boardgames for Chinese manufacturing (they do injection moulding but I can't find the bit I know I've seen where they detail this more, I'll carry on looking)
RiTides wrote: Alpharius, I honestly think that's all wishful thinking.
This company had no idea what material they were using, so they certainly haven't lined up WGF, who have a huge queue and (as noted) aren't taking on new customers.
They may be hoping to use another company that doesn't normally do wargaming miniatures. Hawk Wargames did this (I think even in the UK?), but they have more experience and simpler geometry on their small scale vehicles, that meant it wasn't as complicated of a mold as a normal miniature requires.
The creators here can say all day long that they're doing characters in HIPS, but I only know of one company that does that- Games Workshop, and only just recently.
Chances are much better that they're somewhat confused about materials or costs, or how difficult and expensive it is to make a model without undercuts that can have an injection mold made for use with high impact polystyrene.
I personally think folks have pushed them into saying "Yes, it's HIPS!" when they cannot realistically do this. Speculating that they have outside funding is just that... speculation, and given the amount of planning they had on how to produce these miniatures in plastic (not much at all) I highly doubt they have that funding.
In short, I really doubt these will be made in HIPS, and even if the units are I think there's basically no chance the characters will be, regardless of what they say. Trying to rationalize and explain how this could work out when it really just can't is a fool's errand, imo.
So, I would personally not suspend disbelief, and if you are pledging, put in a small enough pledge that it won't hurt you if it turns out not to be in the material you're hoping, and which they kind of had their arm twisted into committing to. That, or be satisfied with PVC or the like. But I see no reasonable explanation for how they can do all that they are saying in high impact polystyrene, and I don't think we should pretend that it is likely they can or will... regardless of the promises they have been forced into by backers ramping up their expectations.
Strongly agree with this.
Announcing that everything will be in HIPS and then further lowering the stretch goals, which should all be positives, are just red flags to me. I'm not seeing realistic expectations being established by Scale here given the information we have been shown.
Panda does make tons of board games, and is making the ships for a game called Xia that I backed... but they've had to do many, many revisions to get it right with the creator, and there isn't a lot of detail needed to begin with.
I think Panda is great for normal board game components, but they're not suited to making high quality wargaming miniatures, imo.
Someone hand me my pop corn and a bladder buster cola.. this topic is fun to watch. But let me give you something to regurgitate on in the spirit of conversation and all.
Like I said on the KS Page, some people just like to be negative, they get enjoyment from being sad and pathetic, and they must have company, you know being miserable and all. They will cast doubt, make wild unfounded claims, question every decision, and pray for failure so they can gloat and say I told you so, and act smug as if they knew it all along. If you don't believe in the product or company then go support one you do, why bother gaking on someone else's parade? Oh that's right looking for company... sorry my bad. I guess we have to live with the trolls and banshees screaming all night long about how this or that is the suck.
I happen to be the guy who has spoken to them in email, I am the guy who set them up with Wargames Factory, they had another supplier before hand but wanted to see what other options were out there, so I hooked them up with someone I chat with on Linkedin at Wargames Factory. If they say they are using HIPS to cast their miniatures then I am going to believe them until they give me reason not to. Scale75 makes outstanding miniatures, Scale Games is part of that company so where will this extra funding come from.. most likely the parent company. Is Wargames Factory their supplier, don't know, don't care, I am sure that Scale Games will deliver with whom ever the use to cast their miniatures.
So I guess I will get off my and go back to my chair now and watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 22:57:54
I'm not sure how you've managed to mistake people looking for answers and clarity before pledging money for people who love to be sad, miserable and pathetic?
Statements like many of yours above are wildly inaccurate and aren't exactly covering you in glory.
By all means, be 100% into anything you want, but maybe calm down a bit before going off half-cocked on people looking for more information.
I think there's a definite value to being skeptical about Kickstarters, particularly ones where people can be spending a fair chunk of money, but I also think that beyond a certain point it just all ends up being a matter of underlying trust anyway.
The key is spending slightly less than the amount of faith you have in the product/company, otherwise disappointment will inevitably result! These things do get delayed, suffer problems and differ from the original intentions - but sometimes great things result, and I haven't yet backed anything that I've truly regretted. Of course, Relic Knights is shipping soon...
For the record, I'm happy with the models shown so far, happy with the level of communication (although I wish they had someone with slightly better English), very happy with the new stretches, and am willing to roll the dice on the rules and eventual material - the project is interesting, and something that I want to see more of.
I also think that waiting for retail is a wise move if you want a sure thing, but that the £65 level is a fairly minimal risk, particularly when some of those stretch goals start coming in.
MiniaturesInColor wrote: Someone hand me my pop corn and a bladder buster cola.. this topic is fun to watch. But let me give you something to regurgitate on in the spirit of conversation and all.
Like I said on the KS Page, some people just like to be negative, they get enjoyment from being sad and pathetic, and they must have company, you know being miserable and all. They will cast doubt, make wild unfounded claims, question every decision, and pray for failure so they can gloat and say I told you so, and act smug as if they knew it all along. If you don't believe in the product or company then go support one you do, why bother gaking on someone else's parade? Oh that's right looking for company... sorry my bad. I guess we have to live with the trolls and banshees screaming all night long about how this or that is the suck.
I happen to be the guy who has spoken to them in email, I am the guy who set them up with Wargames Factory, they had another supplier before hand but wanted to see what other options were out there, so I hooked them up with someone I chat with on Linkedin at Wargames Factory. If they say they are using HIPS to cast their miniatures then I am going to believe them until they give me reason not to. Scale75 makes outstanding miniatures, Scale Games is part of that company so where will this extra funding come from.. most likely the parent company. Is Wargames Factory their supplier, don't know, don't care, I am sure that Scale Games will deliver with whom ever the use to cast their miniatures.
So I guess I will get off my and go back to my chair now and watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
I think everyone posting here is interested in the project and would love to see them succeed and deliver on everything, some of us are just having a hard time seeing how they can manage that given the circumstances.
I've heard only good things about Scale75, but they have no experience with multiple aspects of this project and we have all seen exciting KS projects make promises in all good faith that they aren't able to deliver on.
Two years ago, who wouldn't have been excited about McVey studios producing plastic miniatures for a game? Companies have to expect a lot more scrutiny and questions as we become more educated consumers. The level of transparency that some people would need in order to have confidence to pledge may be unrealistic, but this isn't a mean-spirited discussion.
MiniaturesInColor wrote: Someone hand me my pop corn and a bladder buster cola.. this topic is fun to watch. But let me give you something to regurgitate on in the spirit of conversation and all.
Like I said on the KS Page, some people just like to be negative, they get enjoyment from being sad and pathetic, and they must have company, you know being miserable and all. They will cast doubt, make wild unfounded claims, question every decision, and pray for failure so they can gloat and say I told you so, and act smug as if they knew it all along. If you don't believe in the product or company then go support one you do, why bother gaking on someone else's parade? Oh that's right looking for company... sorry my bad. I guess we have to live with the trolls and banshees screaming all night long about how this or that is the suck.
I happen to be the guy who has spoken to them in email, I am the guy who set them up with Wargames Factory, they had another supplier before hand but wanted to see what other options were out there, so I hooked them up with someone I chat with on Linkedin at Wargames Factory. If they say they are using HIPS to cast their miniatures then I am going to believe them until they give me reason not to. Scale75 makes outstanding miniatures, Scale Games is part of that company so where will this extra funding come from.. most likely the parent company. Is Wargames Factory their supplier, don't know, don't care, I am sure that Scale Games will deliver with whom ever the use to cast their miniatures.
So I guess I will get off my and go back to my chair now and watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
I think everyone posting here is interested in the project and would love to see them succeed and deliver on everything, some of us are just having a hard time seeing how they can manage that given the circumstances.
I've heard only good things about Scale75, but they have no experience with multiple aspects of this project and we have all seen exciting KS projects make promises in all good faith that they aren't able to deliver on.
Two years ago, who wouldn't have been excited about McVey studios producing plastic miniatures for a game? Companies have to expect a lot more scrutiny and questions as we become more educated consumers. The level of transparency that some people would need in order to have confidence to pledge may be unrealistic, but this isn't a mean-spirited discussion.
For those coming from the KS comments page for Fallen Frontiers:
+1 plastictrees!
It was a bit ironic that one of the more negative posts in this thread was from someone...complaining about what he perceived as negative posts.
watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
The only name calling I see going on is coming from you mate.
Scale and material concerns are very justified. If you haven't closely backed a lot of kickstarters you may not have been impacted by them or even be aware of them. Companies can have great miniatures, but if you find that they're out of scale for your purposes when you receive them, you're out of pocket with a product you can't use. If you find the material is problematic, you're saddled with 3x the cleaning time, soft details or other problems. If you find the material was changed without consultation, you're left with a material you dislike working with in your collection. Dismissing peoples concerns because you don't share them shows a distinct lack of empathy.
Getting clear information out of a company is essential when they're asking for money up front for a product to be made and delivered at some stage in the future. It's good for us, and it's good for them as certainty breeds confidence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 00:34:27
So I guess I will get off my and go back to my chair now and watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
You say this assuming people wil degrade and cast aspersions upon you.
But you start off by saying this...
Like I said on the KS Page, some people just like to be negative, they get enjoyment from being sad and pathetic, and they must have company, you know being miserable and all. They will cast doubt, make wild unfounded claims, question every decision, and pray for failure so they can gloat and say I told you so, and act smug as if they knew it all along. If you don't believe in the product or company then go support one you do, why bother gaking on someone else's parade? Oh that's right looking for company... sorry my bad. I guess we have to live with the trolls and banshees screaming all night long about how this or that is the suck.
I rarely follow kickstarters to this extent and I actually started doing so because I was very much interested in the product and would have signed on for the shop pledge 'minimum'. possibly multipl shop pledges, if it had been 35mm figures in HIPS. I backed out at the scale thing but it took so much work from numerous people to actually get a straight answer about that that I was now hooked into following the malarkey 
and go back to my chair now and watch as I get attacked, ripped at, called names and all that great stuff I have come to expect from game forums now.. so have at it.
