Jihadin wrote:
Think they throw that in the stats because its a violent mean to opt out.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
No I linked a pic, but I did not link to any story that was about them. You are literally just pulling that out of your ass. I am done with you, you are literally putting words in my mouth several times now so yea no point in continuing this.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Six dead in domestic gun violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28240831

Are we going to list every crime now?
A man was stabbed to death in Hendon.
http://www.murdermap.co.uk/pages/news/index.asp?NewsID=1163

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Six dead in domestic gun violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28240831

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The point about this particular incident is that it supports the argument for gun control.

In this case it seems that the husband and wife had an argument that got out of hand. With a gun easily available, the husband was able in a fit of rage to grab it up and shoot dead six people including four of his children.

Perhaps it might be argued that if the wife and children had also been armed, it could not have happened like that.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
If you had no guns at all it would have made it even harder for him to shoot them.

That said, a gun distances you from the act of killing (even in close range attacks) physically and emotionally making it easier to go through with the act of killing.

Additionally, the majority of murders and "attempted murders" are carried out on an unplanned basis using whatever is closest to hand, that being generally (in the USA) a gun, knife, blunt instrument or bare hands. Unfortunately, guns are particularly good at killing people very quickly meaning that in instances where guns are used, the victim is far more likely to be killed.

So in summary, guns make killing psychologically easier, make it easier to kill physically stronger individuals and groups of individuals, and are, generally, more deadly when used on a person than other methods.

 Seaward wrote:
Let me know when you've invented a time machine and we can make that happen. .9 guns for every 1 person in the US aren't just going to go away through the power of friendship.

Doesn't do much to change the hilarity of people trying to use this particular story as the latest cause célèbre in the anti-gun crusade despite the fact that no law known to man, or even the Messiah himself (I speak of Jesus or Barack, depending on your persuasion) would have been able to stop it.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Surprisingly one does not need a time machine in order to alter the future. One simply needs to take action in the present. Of course, that action must be supported and taken forwards.

However, it is nice to see you attempt to derail my comments with some kind of nirvana fallacy.

I was not making any comment at all on that particular news story; I was responding to your ridiculous post. You don't even attempt to respond to anything I have said other than to essentially ignore it and continue attacking those you disagree with.

 Seaward wrote:
Pretending that it's possible to get to a "no guns" state, as your "if you didn't have any guns, he would have found it even harder to shoot somebody," post implied, would in fact require a time machine.

You weren't many any comment at all on the news story? Who was the "he" who would've had a harder time shooting someone with no guns at all around, then?

As for responding to the rest of what you said...I'm not sure how many times we need to rediscover that guns became popular because they make it easier to kill people than using one's bare hands, or a sword, or a flail, or a crossbow. No kidding.

Are you channeling sebster or something?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Let me know when you've invented a time machine and we can make that happen. .9 guns for every 1 person in the US aren't just going to go away through the power of friendship.

Surprisingly one does not need a time machine in order to alter the future. One simply needs to take action in the present. Of course, that action must be supported and taken forwards.

However, it is nice to see you attempt to derail my comments with some kind of nirvana fallacy.

Doesn't do much to change the hilarity of people trying to use this particular story as the latest cause célèbre in the anti-gun crusade despite the fact that no law known to man, or even the Messiah himself (I speak of Jesus or Barack, depending on your persuasion) would have been able to stop it.

I was not making any comment at all on that particular news story; I was responding to your ridiculous post. You don't even attempt to respond to anything I have said other than to essentially ignore it and continue attacking those you disagree with.

 Seaward wrote:
This is a horrific story.

This dude forced his way into his former in-laws' house, tied 'em all up, and shot them each in the back of the head. One of the victims, a fifteen year-old female, survived the point blank headshot and called the cops after the donkey-cave left the house in search of his ex-wife.

If nothing else, hopefully this will show us that sensible gun legislation can make a difference. Mandatory waiting periods, for example. A waiting period might have given this guy time to rethink what he was doing. Instead, this remained a spur-of-the-moment massacre prompted by the easy availability of guns, and it remained spur-of-the-moment all during the twenty-three hour drive from where he lived in Utah down to Houston.

A ban on high-powered (what I believe to be) automatic assault combat rifles, for another. Now, yes, the murderer in this case used a revolver, but he could have used a high-powered automatic (what's that mean, anyway?) assault combat rifle if he wanted to, as is the case in at least 0.5% of gun crime in the US.

A magazine ban seems pretty obvious in its effectiveness. Lives could have been saved if his gun could only carry six five bullets and he didn't know how to reload it. And all the pro-gun crazies will come in here and point out that there are literally thousands of documented cases of armed assailants being shot multiple times before finally being incapacitated or otherwise stopped, but we on the left side of truth know that you only need to shoot someone once, and thus one, maybe two bullet-things is all you'll ever need. Unless your target is a prone fifteen year-old female at point blank range. But that's hardly a self-defense situation, is it? So there.

Do I even need to point out how background checks would have stopped this?

And obviously Mom or Dad going around "heeled" like we were in some sort of Old Western wouldn't have helped no matter what anyone's going to say. When there's an armed man in your house with your kids tie up when you come home, you meekly do what he says, because the statistics are on your side in that this probably will be one of those armed home invasions that doesn't end in death or injury. Defending yourself with lethal force is neither enlightened nor politically correct and it never works!

The man who allegedly shot dead a married Houston couple and four of their children in an execution-style killing on Wednesday was jealous of their happy life together, claimed the children's grandfather.
Speaking to Mailonline from his home in Sun City, California, Thomas Stay said that Ron Haskell, 33, envied the life his son Stephen had built with his wife Katie and their five children.
According to Thomas Stay, Haskell couldn't accept his separation from his ex-wife Melannie - Katie’s sister - and chose to massacre his son and his family because he was ‘jealous of Stephen and Katie’s family and what they could have that he didn’t have’.

Thomas also opened up about Haskell’s history and said that he had been ‘unstable for a long time’ - but had been known to his family for years.
He said: ‘Ron’s brother Bobby is Stephen’s best friend. It’s strange. I think that mentally he’s just not right.
‘The whole thing doesn’t make any sense. Ron was just all mixed up.

‘He and Melanie split about six months ago, they were living in Logan, Utah, and he was abusive, very controlling. Their divorce was finalized in February.
‘She couldn’t take it any more.’
Thomas said that his son and daughter-in-law moved to Texas about four years ago having previously lived in Utah.
Like Haskell they had four children, but unlike him their marriage lasted.
He said: ‘Melissa had the kids with her. I don’t know if he was thinking maybe the will be at Stephen’s house.’
Paying tribute to his son and daughter-in-law, he said: ‘They were very religious, they had a lot of faith in the gospel. They loved each other and did things together.
‘They just loved life.’
Stephen’s mother Joyce Stay, 74, added: ‘We lost our son, our daughter-in-law, our four grandkids. We know the man that did it.
‘His family has been friends with ours for years. He was not well person. I watched this kid grow up, I have had him in my home for sleepovers.
‘This is a good family that this man comes from - there is something wrong in him to do this kind of thing, it’s not normal’.
Thomas Stay also revealed that Cassidy, 15, the sole survivor of the shooting, is now out of the Intensive Care Unit and is conscious.
This comes as the first photograph of the family reveals the smiling faces of the Stays - shot dead 'execution style' by 33-year-old suspect Ron Lee Haskell in Houston on Wednesday night.
Also pictured is the brave 15-year-old girl who was able to phone 911 and warn deputies that Haskell planned to travel to her grandparents' home to kill them before she was rushed to hospital in a critical condition.
According to police, Haskell killed, Stephen Stay, 39 and Katie Stay, 34 and four children - two boys ages 4 and 14 and two girls, ages 7 and 9, inside their home in the suburb of Spring.
However, Haskell's 15-year-old niece, who has been identified in local media as Cassidy, survived the shooting and played dead before courageously phoning 911 and alerting police despite suffering a gunshot wound to the head.

Police in Houston said that the shooting spree stemmed from the suspects divorce from his wife.
Just last week, Karla Jean Haskell, Ron Haskell's mother accused her son of domestic violence in San Marcos, California.
Court records reveal that Karla Haskell claims on July 3, her son got angry at her for talking to his ex-wife and duct taped her to a chair, with her arms taped as well.
According to ABC 13 the domestic violence report claims Haskell accused her son of choking her until she lost consciousness and that she stayed taped to the chair for four hours.
Indeed, according to court records, Haskell once had a restraining order filed against him by his ex-wife and had been considered a threat to their children, court records reveal.
Haskell was looking for his ex-wife, Melannie Haskell, when he forced his way into her sister's home, tied up her famiy and shot them all.
According to the Harris County District Attorney's Office, Haskell's wife had left him and moved from Utah to Houston with the help of her sister, who lived there.
According to NBC News, Melannie Haskell petitioned a court for an order of protection in July 2013. The judge granted this order, and Melannie Haskell filed for divorce the following month.
In October last year, the protective order was lifted when the couple decided on a mutual restraining order and custody arrangements involving their children.

A judge also decreed that Ron Lee Haskell’s visits would be watched by a psychologist.
''Mr. Haskell’s parent time will be supervised until such time that his physical therapist can report that the respondent is no longer a threat to the children,' the judge wrote.
IIndeed, Haskell has had a number of previous run-ins with the law in his home state of Utah when he was living there with his wife.
Before she filed her restraining orders, Utah law enforcement said that Haskell was arrested several times by the Logan City Police Department and was jailed for a time in the Cache County jail in 2008.
Mr. Haskell was booked into the Cache County Jail on charges of simple assault and child abuse or neglect, both class B misdemeanors, on June 5, 2008,' according to a news release from the Cache County Sheriff’s Office.
Since then, he has had multiple involvements with Logan City Police Department and had a protective order served on him by Cache County Sheriff’s deputies on July 9, 2013.'
According to The Salt Lake Tribune, Haskell was also arrested in June 2008 and charged with simple assault and domestic violence in the presence of a child.
He was also jailed in the same year on charges of assault and child abuse or neglect according to a statement from the Cache County Sheriff's Office.
Both were dismissed the next year.

The teen's call allowed police to rush to the scene and corner the suspected gunman who eventually sank to his knees and surrendered after a tense three-hour stand-off with deputies who had corralled him into a suburban cul-de-sac.
'It appears this stems from a domestic issue with a breakup in the family from what our witness has told us,' Assistant Chief Deputy Constable Mark Herman of the Harris County Precinct 4 Constable's Office told reporters. He did not explain further.
According to documents read out in magistrate court this morning in Houston, the 15-year-old girl managed to give police a witness statement.
The teen said that Haskell arrived in the afternoon on Wednesday dressed as a FedEx worker looking for his estranged wife and asked for her parents, but she told him that none of them were at home.

He left, only to return a short time later and the teen once again told him that her parents were not home.
It was at this point that she recognized him as her 'ex-uncle' and tried to close the door on him.
Haskell kicked the door in and tied her up and then waited for her four brothers and sisters and parents to return.
When they did he tied them up as well and then laid them face-down on the floor.
According to police documents read out in court this morning he demanded to know where hs wife was and when they said they did not know, he shot them all 'execution-style' in the back of the head and left.
However, the bullet only fractured the teen's skull according to Click2Houston - and she played dead until he left and then called 911.

She was able to tell deputies who the shooter was and that she believed he was headed to another residence at Anvil and Ella to possibly attack more family members.
Deputies were able to intercept Haskell, who led them on a chase that came to an end about three miles from the shooting scene.
Haskell, 33, was transferred to the Harris County jail overnight and has been charged with multiple shooting deaths.
The shootings took place about 20 miles north of downtown Houston at a four-bedroom home in a quiet, middle-class residential neighborhood near the town of Spring.
Reached at her home in San Marcos, California, Haskell's mother Karla, 61, fought back the tears as she admitted she still did not know exactly what her son had allegedly done.
She said: 'We have no idea about what went on. We still don't know.
'I can't watch it. I just can't do it. I really can't talk right now'.
Haskell's brother Robert said: 'I would like to say that our thoughts and prayers are going to the family that were affected and people that lost their loved ones.

Asked about his brother's state of mind, he said: 'There's a lot going on but I can't comment further. I have not spoken to the police'.
Police say Haskell held the five children and their parents prisoner, tied up and then shot them all.
Gilliland said the teenager was in 'very critical condition' at Memorial Hermann Hospital in Houston late Wednesday night after being airlifted there.
It was the 15-year-old survivor who told deputies that Haskell was headed to her grandparents' home and they were able to pass along the warning, he said according to local press reports.
Constable Ronald Hickman in Houston said she gave police a description of the suspect and was providing 'critical information' to authorities.

'While quickly responding to that location, we saw him coming up to that residence where other relatives of that family lived and we assumed he meant to shoot them as well,' Hickman said.
According to KHOU in Houston, 'He (Haskell) came to this location yesterday afternoon – late – and came under the guise of a FedEx driver wearing a FedEx shirt,' said Constable Ron Hickman.
'…came to this residence, gathered up the children that were here and awaited the arrival of the parents. Sometime later the victims were shot in this residence, and we now learned that Mr. Haskell was married to a relative of the residents of this home.'
FedEx confirmed that Haskell worked for them through a contractor - but said he had performed no duties for them since the New Year.
'We don't know why this happened,' nearby resident Paul Anthony Slawinski told Reuters. 'This man, his wife, and children were the definition of compassion and charity.'
A woman who said she lives across the street from the house described the family as close-knit to the Houston Chronicle.
'It was a Mormon family,' she said. 'They were very sweet and their kids were very shy. This is a sad, sad day.'
Public records state that Stephen Robert Stay and Katie Stay, ages 39 and 33, are living at the residence on Leaflet Lane, however, they are not listed as the owners of the house.
A web page from the Houston Association of Realtors lists Stephen Stay as a real estate broker in the area and listed the home's address as his residence.
Authorities said the teen's information also helped them intercept the suspect. The suspected gunman then led authorities on a chase, with nearly two dozen deputy constables' patrol cars following him into a cul-de-sac shortly before 7 pm.


There, the suspect's boxed-in vehicle remained for hours. Finally, about 10 p.m., after hours of waiting and negotiations, the man emerged from his car, raised his hands and sank to his knees as deputies placed him under arrest.
During that time, Gilliand said, there were 'two hours of constant talking with a man armed with a pistol to his head and who had just killed six people.'
Gilliland described the man as in his 30s with a beard 'and cool as a cucumber.' He said that when he and other officers first approached, the man was 'just sitting in his car looking out at us.'
'This concluded the way we wanted it to,' Gilliland said after the surrender.
Said Precinct 4 Constable Ron Hickman, 'He was in the car for 3½ hours. He was worn down like the rest of us. He came out of the car without resistance.'
Danna Stevens, 75, and her husband, Texas Stevens, live four doors down from the home where the shooting happened but weren't home at the time.
She said she didn't know her neighbors well and that they had moved into the subdivision about a year ago.

Relapse wrote:
Of course we could take similar action against alcohol because of incidents like this:

Since it was an alcohol caused accident that killed six, it won't generate the level of outrage there is against guns, even though it is proven by the CDC there are 3x the the people who die from alcohol over guns. This isn't even mentioning the fact that 2 out of 3 domestic abuse cases involve alcohol or all of the health related incidents tied to it.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Of course we could take similar action against alcohol because of incidents like this:

Of course, we could also conduct an association fallacy whilst simultaneously continuing to divert discussion away from the topic.

Since it was an alcohol caused accident that killed six, it won't generate the level of outrage there is against guns, even though it is proven by the CDC there are 3x the the people who die from alcohol over guns. This isn't even mentioning the fact that 2 out of 3 domestic abuse cases involve alcohol or all of the health related incidents tied to it.

And indeed there is nothing stopping you attempting to discuss the issues in a place where such discussion is valid, such as a thread on curbing the dangers of alcohol. Nor, as has been pointed out many, many, many times, can only one thing at a time be done by society to improve its lot. One can focus both on alcohol and gun safety without diluting the efforts of either.

But again, since you seem only intent on diverting the discussion...

Relapse wrote:
Nope, just demonstrating the hypocracy of people calling for a ban on guns because, "guns kill people", when most of these same anti gun people turn around and support the alcohol industry, which does far more damage than guns.

Spoiler:

Relapse wrote:
Nope, just demonstrating the hypocracy of people calling for a ban on guns because, "guns kill people", when most of these same anti gun people turn around and support the alcohol industry, which does far more damage than guns.

 Jihadin wrote:
Think they throw that in the stats because its a violent mean to opt out.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Six dead in domestic gun violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28240831

Are we going to list every crime now?
A man was stabbed to death in Hendon.
http://www.murdermap.co.uk/pages/news/index.asp?NewsID=1163

The point about this particular incident is that it supports the argument for gun control.

In this case it seems that the husband and wife had an argument that got out of hand. With a gun easily available, the husband was able in a fit of rage to grab it up and shoot dead six people including four of his children.

Perhaps it might be argued that if the wife and children had also been armed, it could not have happened like that.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
If you had no guns at all it would have made it even harder for him to shoot them.

That said, a gun distances you from the act of killing (even in close range attacks) physically and emotionally making it easier to go through with the act of killing.

Additionally, the majority of murders and "attempted murders" are carried out on an unplanned basis using whatever is closest to hand, that being generally (in the USA) a gun, knife, blunt instrument or bare hands. Unfortunately, guns are particularly good at killing people very quickly meaning that in instances where guns are used, the victim is far more likely to be killed.

So in summary, guns make killing psychologically easier, make it easier to kill physically stronger individuals and groups of individuals, and are, generally, more deadly when used on a person than other methods.

 Jihadin wrote:
80% wrong

 Frazzled wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Think they throw that in the stats because its a violent mean to opt out.

Its also a way to manipulate data. Some unscrupulous cities (Chicago) could classify some homcides as "suicides" and lower the scores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Six dead in domestic gun violence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28240831

Are we going to list every crime now?
A man was stabbed to death in Hendon.
http://www.murdermap.co.uk/pages/news/index.asp?NewsID=1163

The point about this particular incident is that it supports the argument for gun control.

In this case it seems that the husband and wife had an argument that got out of hand. With a gun easily available, the husband was able in a fit of rage to grab it up and shoot dead six people including four of his children.

Perhaps it might be argued that if the wife and children had also been armed, it could not have happened like that.

Or he could have used a butcher knife or a nice Louisville Slugger.

That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms, ammunition, and accessories typical to the normal function of such arms, in defense of his home, person, family and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons. The rights guaranteed by this section shall be unalienable. Any restriction on these rights shall be subject to strict scrutiny and the state of Missouri shall be obligated to uphold these rights and shall under no circumstances decline to protect against their infringement. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the general assembly from enacting general laws which limit the rights of convicted violent felons or those adjudicated by a court to be a danger to self or others as result of a mental disorder or mental infirmity.

 d-usa wrote:
Butcher blades come with a switchblade option now?

And your comment misses the point anyway. If everything else is just as effective as a gun, then why do we need to carry guns?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It might be called hypocritical to call people hypocritical who call for stricter gun laws when there are already stricter car and alcohol laws in effect.

IDK how strongly the car and alcohol lobbies lobbied against such laws.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't know about the US but the UK has a number of increased penalties for drink related lawbreaking, as well as lowering of tollerances for drink related crimes to kick in. All brought into force in the last few years.

Which again is beside the point when discussing guns.

 Frazzled wrote:
And carrying an illegal firearm is typically a felony. Still not getting the argument that booze is regulated more than firearms, because its not. Only someone ignorant of firearms regulation would make the claim.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And carrying an illegal firearm is typically a felony. Still not getting the argument that booze is regulated more than firearms, because its not. Only someone ignorant of firearms regulation would make the claim.

Brandishing booze is also not a crime