Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/05/02 01:12:34
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I am asking you, as a requirement, per Tenet 1.
To provide your source that states that units gain the reserves special rule.
This is at least the 4th or 5th time I have asked for it.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim I have already proved false and you provide no evidence for.
I have already provided support. A plainly stated quote from the BRB that you are having trouble comprehending.
The Reserves special rule grants abilities to units in the game which you can see highlighted in orange.
Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives Night Fighting Reserves Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!
Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.
If the players are playing according to the Reserves special rule then all units have those abilities.
Of course if the players are not playing according to the Reserves specail rule then all units do not have those abilities. In which case, Deep Strike fails to function since no unit is getting placed in Reserves or getting a Reserves Roll.
Remember you have to actually show that the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule have been taken away.
You have failed to prove that BvA applies so nothing is taking way the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 01:17:57
2017/05/02 01:16:37
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I am asking you, as a requirement, per Tenet 1.
To provide your source that states that units gain the reserves special rule.
This is at least the 4th or 5th time I have asked for it.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim I have already proved false and you provide no evidence for.
I have already provided support.
The Reserves special rule grants abilities to units in the game which you can see highlighted in orange.
Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives Night Fighting Reserves Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!
Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.
If the players are playing according to the Reserves special rule then all units have those abilities.
Of course if the players are not playing according to the Reserves specail rule then all units do not have those abilities. In which case, Deep Strike fails to function since no unit is getting placed in Reserves or getting a Reserves Roll.
You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.
All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".
That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/02 01:17:40
2017/05/02 01:23:34
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.
All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".
That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.
You have it backwards.
You have failed to make a counter argument. You have failed to show that BvA applies to remove permissions that are granted by the Reserves special rule.
My argument is simple. If the Reserves special rule is in effect then units in the game have the abilities that the Reserves special rule grants. No rule takes away those permissions. Simple.
So until you start showing how BvA even applies here the argument is effectively over. Remember you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule for BvA to even apply.
My argument is already proven by the mere presence of the Reserves special rule in the game.
2017/05/02 01:31:00
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.
All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".
That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.
You have it backwards.
You have failed to make a counter argument. You have failed to show that BvA applies to remove permissions that are granted by the Reserves special rule.
My argument is simple. If the Reserves special rule is in effect then units in the game have the abilities that the Reserves special rule grants. No rule takes away those permissions. Simple.
So until you start showing how BvA even applies here the argument is effectively over. Remember you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule for BvA to even apply.
My argument is already proven by the mere presence of the Reserves special rule in the game.
Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/02 01:33:57
2017/05/02 01:49:52
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.
The Reserves rule gives units the ability and permission to Arrive From Reserves and Move On From Reserves.
You have failed to show a rule that takes away those permissions.
Until you show a rule that takes away those permission your argument is invalid.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Also, this is how we determine which rule is which
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 01:52:14
2017/05/02 01:52:16
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.
The Reserves rule gives units the ability and permission to Arrive From Reserves and Move On From Reserves.
You have failed to show a rule that takes away that permission.
Until you show a rule that takes away that permission your argument is invalid.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Also, this is how we determine which rule is which
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Mission special rules are not special rules for units.
Deep Strike is a special rule for units.
Deep Strike has precedence.
Provide evidence that states units gain a rule called "Reserves".
2017/05/02 01:57:43
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Also, this is how we determine which rule is which
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/02 01:58:39
