Brother Ramses wrote:
So I challenge anyone to break this premise;

The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The quote I reference

yet still don't provide the page number for

col_impact wrote:
technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.

And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, [b]if the unit is in Reserve, by informing your opponent which unit it has joined." (page 166). Going by the col impact standard, it's okay to say that you changed your mind, it's not joined to the other unit as long as you do it before rolling to come out of Reserve, despite having already declared it is joined to the unit

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So I challenge anyone to break this premise;

The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model.

This was stated by Caenn, several responses were given in counter, no response made regarding this was ever made to support it. So, I ask you, where does it state "the section on Unit Type contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively"?

Answer: Nowhere that I have found. This concept is a construct that ignores that the Unit Type section is outside the Core Rules, and anything that causes a model to be different, "because hey are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)", have advanced rules applied. As such, there is no connection in defining anything in the Unit Type as "basic rules" aside from the Infantry Unit Type, and that is only because it explicitly states as such.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.

Ceann wrote:

At the end of the day you have to be breaking a rule to be an advanced rule.

Models move up to 6 says it is represents most creatures, not all.

Ceann wrote:

The rules for the movement phase say a unit can move it's maximum distance.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

At the end of the day you have to be breaking a rule to be an advanced rule.

Models move up to 6 says it is represents most creatures, not all.

It is. It's breaking the rule that units can move 6".The bit about saying it represents most creatures, not all creatures is an explanation - NOT a rule by itself that you apply to the rule that units move 6".

Ceann wrote:

The rules for the movement phase say a unit can move it's maximum distance.

The rules for the movement phase start by saying a unit can move 6", so that has to be overridden in order to move maximum distance. You don't override it, you break that rule if you move more than 6". Advanced rules override basic rules. The rules for beasts (or bikes or whatever) are advanced rules and therefore get to override the basic rule of moving 6". With the misconception of all movement rules being basic rules, you have to misconstrue and ignore other rules in order to try to make that view work.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:

Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply

It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.

 doctortom wrote:


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?

 Brother Ramses wrote:


As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:

Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply

It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.

The triggers for Moving On From Reserve and Deep Strike happen "at the same time". The active player decides to resolve Moving On From Reserve for the Rolls from Reserve.

Spoiler:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.

Remember, BvA does not apply so the active player must choose the order. If the active player chooses to have the unit Move On From Reserves then there is no Deep Striking unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?

What is the point you want that you want to make with these questions? Is there a rule to substantiate what you want to say?

Remember we are concerned with understanding the rules as they are written on the page.

Per the RAW, a player can choose when Rolling for Reserves whether his units Move On From Reserves or whether they Deep Strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

A player who follows the rules as written and uses the freedom of choice granted by the rules is not lying. He is simply playing according to the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.

Your comment doesn't apply at all.

Per the Mission Special Rules all the models on the board have the Reserves special rule.

The player is simply exercising that permission.

Ceann wrote:


You are just purely incorrect Col.

You don't get a normal reserve roll, your argument was that it didn't even trigger you obviously are trying to change that argument now.
Clearly you were wrong so now you are setting up your next obfuscation.

You only get one reserve roll for every unit. You don't get to choose the type of roll.
Because you deployed as deepstrike reserve, you get a deepstrike roll.
Just like if you deploy with Outflank you get an Outflank roll.

The type of roll you get is attached to your method of deployment.
You are just trying to find a way around it now and there isn't one.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You are just purely incorrect Col.

You don't get a normal reserve roll, your argument was that it didn't even trigger you obviously are trying to change that argument now.
Clearly you were wrong so now you are setting up your next obfuscation.

You only get one reserve roll for every unit. You don't get to choose the type of roll.
Because you deployed as deepstrike reserve, you get a deepstrike roll.
Just like if you deploy with Outflank you get an Outflank roll.

The type of roll you get is attached to your method of deployment.
You are just trying to find a way around it now and there isn't one.

My argument hasn't changed.

The player simply exercises the following permission.

Spoiler:

Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

After exercising that permission there will not be a Deep Striking unit.

Remember BvA does not apply so the active player chooses the order in which to apply events that happen "at the same time".

Ceann wrote:


You don't have an argument.

Prove you have a normal reserve roll.
You deployed as deepstrike, so you only have a deepstrike rule.
Also mission special rules are for deployment, they are not special rules in the battle. Nice try though.

Night fighting for example grants your units a real special rule.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You don't have an argument.

Prove you have a normal reserve roll.
You deployed as deepstrike, so you only have a deepstrike rule.
Also mission special rules are for deployment, they are not special rules in the battle. Nice try though.

Night fighting for example grants your units a real special rule.

This is the rule used to make the Reserve Roll in each case we are discussing.

Spoiler:

Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

The unit is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open for the player to have the unit simply Walk On From Reserves.

Spoiler:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:

MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

So I have substantiated all of my argument with direct rules quotes and you have substantiated none of your counter argument. You are losing this argument, Ceann.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:

The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.

Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.

Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:

1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:


And you still don't have an argument.
Highlight MISSION special rules all you want.
Those are rules for the DEPLOYMENT phase.
Not for the battle.
They are special for the MISSION, not for the battle.

Ceann wrote:


BvA, Deep Strike has precedence.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


And you still don't have an argument.
Highlight MISSION special rules all you want.
Those are rules for the DEPLOYMENT phase.
Not for the battle.
They are special for the MISSION, not for the battle.

Incorrect. The Reserves rules include rules for Arriving from Reserve, Moving On From Reserves, and Ongoing Reserves.

All of those rules happen during the battle and they are all special rules and those are the rules that are pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Ceann, it doesn't help your counter argument to make statements that go directly against plainly stated rules. I suggest you change your approach.

Ceann wrote:


I don't need to change anything, you have no argument.
All USR's are listed in the Special Rules section.
Your claim that "Reserves" is something the units/models gain is inherently false.

It is a special rule for the mission, mission special rules are not unit special rules.
It is a special rule for the mission, allowing you to perform reserves, that does not mean the reserve rolls themselves in the battle are special rules.

Night Fighting is an example that clearly states it gives units a special rule of stealth.
Reserve rules are only special rules in regards to OTHER mission rules, they have no precedence over UNIT rules.
Deployment phase rules have no precedence once the battle has started.
Remember the deployment phase is part of "preparing for battle" as you have pointed out previously.

We are no longer "preparing for battle" so those rules no longer have any status.
We can tell this because Night Fighting tells us the units gain a special rule.
Reserves does not tell us the unit gains a special rule.
BvA Deep strike has precedence.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


I don't need to change anything, you have no argument.
All USR's are listed in the Special Rules section.
Your claim that "Reserves" is something the units/models gain is inherently false.

It is a special rule for the mission, mission special rules are not unit special rules.
It is a special rule for the mission, allowing you to perform reserves, that does not mean the reserve rolls themselves in the battle are special rules.

Night Fighting is an example that clearly states it gives units a special rule of stealth.
Reserve rules are only special rules in regards to OTHER mission rules, they have no precedence over UNIT rules.
Deployment phase rules have no precedence once the battle has started.
Remember the deployment phase is part of "preparing for battle" as you have pointed out previously.

We are no longer "preparing for battle" so those rules no longer have any status.
We can tell this because Night Fighting tells us the units gain a special rule.
Reserves does not tell us the unit gains a special rule.
BvA Deep strike has precedence.

Again you present an argument that goes directly against plainly stated rules.

Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:

MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

Ceann wrote:


Please dear Col, highlight the line where it states that it is a special rule for models/units.
I would love dearly to see it.
What I need to be concerned with is that you actually properly represent the rules.
Since it clearly does not state that, you are making an insubstantial claim to prop up your argument.
Units are not "a game".

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


Please dear Col, highlight the line where it states that it is a special rule for models/units.
I would love dearly to see it.
What I need to be concerned with is that you actually properly represent the rules.
Since it clearly does not state that, you are making an insubstantial claim to prop up your argument.
Units are not "a game".

Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission as indicated in the orange highlighting below.

Spoiler:

MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

col_impact wrote:
Ceann,

the burden is on you to show how BvA even applies in this case.

Reserves is a special rule. Deep Strike is a special rule.

No matter how many times you object, BvA simply does not apply.

You need to prove that BvA applies.

Ceann wrote:


Again, I don't need to do anything.
Please correct your wording. Reserves is not a special rule.
Reserves is a MISSION SPECIAL RULE.

Remember how you drew the contrast between outflank and deepstrike?
We have the exact same situation here but it is against you.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special rule.

Everyone here can plainly see that Night Fighting Mission special rule confers a special rule to a unit

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.

Do you see where it says "Units gain the Reserves special rule"

I don't.

So please provide your proof that they do, or provide your concession.
You are obfuscating now so you don't have to provide evidence for your claim.
Mission Special Rules are not unit special rules.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


Again, I don't need to do anything.
Please correct your wording. Reserves is not a special rule.
Reserves is a MISSION SPECIAL RULE.

Remember how you drew the contrast between outflank and deepstrike?
We have the exact same situation here but it is against you.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special rule.

Everyone here can plainly see that Night Fighting Mission special rule confers a special rule to a unit

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.

Do you see where it says "Units gain the Reserves special rule"

I don't.

So please provide your proof that they do, or provide your concession.
You are obfuscating now so you don't have to provide evidence for your claim.
Mission Special Rules are not unit special rules.

Your problem that you continue to fail to address is that BvA simply does not apply.

Ceann wrote:


It does apply because if you cannot prove it is a UNIT special rule.
Then when you roll for the UNIT the UNIT special rule deep strike has precedence.
Mission Special Rules are only special rules in the deployment phase as a part of the "game".
Just like Mysterious Objectives are not special rules in the battle, only SOME of the options from die rolls result in a special rule during the battle, such as skyfire.

So please quit changing the subject.

Demonstrate that "Units gain the Reserves" special rule.
You clearly lost the argument because now you are trying to attack mine instead of defending your own.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


It does apply because if you cannot prove it is a UNIT special rule.
Then when you roll for the UNIT the UNIT special rule deep strike has precedence.
Mission Special Rules are only special rules in the deployment phase as a part of the "game".
Just like Mysterious Objectives are not special rules in the battle, only SOME of the options from die rolls result in a special rule during the battle, such as skyfire.

So please quit changing the subject.

Demonstrate that "Units gain the Reserves" special rule.
You clearly lost the argument because now you are trying to attack mine instead of defending your own.

BvA does not apply. So the unit retains all the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule. The player simply elects to have the unit Move On From Reserves when the unit Arrives From Reserves.


Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.

Ceann wrote:


Sure.

I read the entire USR section.
Is Reserves in the USR section?
Nope.

Please demonstrate that it is a special rule that units gain.
You clearly lost because now you are attacking my argument rather than defending your position.
You in fact gave up your position because it had been compromised.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


Sure.

I read the entire USR section.
Is Reserves in the USR section?
Nope.

Please demonstrate that it is a special rule that units gain.
You clearly lost because now you are attacking my argument rather than defending your position.
You in fact gave up your position because it had been compromised.

Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.

Ceann wrote:


BvA - The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Is "Reserves" in the Army List Entry?
Then it doesn't apply to the unit.
Deep Strike applies to the unit.
You are finished.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


BvA - The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Is "Reserves" in the Army List Entry?
Then it doesn't apply to the unit.
Deep Strike applies to the unit.
You are finished.

The Reserves special rule grants abilities to all units in the game that are not overridden by any rule.

BvA does not apply unless you can prove that Reserves is a basic rule.

Deep Strike can only override basic rules.