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goundry wrote:
do you not think this is getting little silly, you've been batting backwards and forwarded did or didn't kill the high lords for days, which i plenty of time to pick up the book and provide a reference, other wise your never going to get any where

I believe this is a good solution, but one I cannot do. I don't have the book - never bought it, never owned it.
If you'd be willing to get the reference and put an end to this "silliness", that would be appreciated.

At this point, however, I believe it has escalated beyond "did he kill any HLOT" to "should he have killed any HLOT".

I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

BrianDavion wrote:
man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king)

Guilliman isn't Sanguinius.

 Melissia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king)

Guilliman isn't Sanguinius.

But is the son of god and a warrior king. Sanguinius isn't the only Primarch people can be in awe of....

pm713 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king)

Guilliman isn't Sanguinius.

But is the son of god and a warrior king. Sanguinius isn't the only Primarch people can be in awe of....

However, Sanguinius fits the descriptor of a tragic martyr and king far better, and even Guilliman and Horus would have preferred Sanguinius be placed at the head of the Great Crusade and, for Guilliman, the Imperium Secundus.

I'd actually compare Guilliman more with Caesar-- appropriate enough, given his and his legion's Greco-Roman character design.

Of course, we all know what happened to Caesar...

 Melissia wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king)

Guilliman isn't Sanguinius.

But is the son of god and a warrior king. Sanguinius isn't the only Primarch people can be in awe of....

However, Sanguinius fits the descriptor of a tragic martyr and king far better, and even Guilliman and Horus would have preferred Sanguinius be placed at the head of the Great Crusade and, for Guilliman, the Imperium Secundus.

I'd actually compare Guilliman more with Caesar-- appropriate enough, given his and his legion's Greco-Roman character design.

Of course, we all know what happened to Caesar...

Although none of that really affects how modern Imperial people see him. So while Sanguinius is a bit more special than Roboute they're essentially equal as while Sanguinius gets more prestige he's also more likely to draw criticism from more fanatical members of organisations like the Inqusition.

Unlikely. Sanguinius is a Saint, renowned Imperium-wide and venerated by nearly every world at least once a year. Guilliman may be revered, but Sanguinius is worshiped, for the sacrifice he made to the Emperor.

Also, a reminder, the GW devstream confirmed they're not bringing Sanguinius back; he's deader than dead, so bear that in mind when I say this: the dead are far easier to venerate than the living, and the living far easier to criticize.

Dead heroes are more useful than living ones, for the purposes of propaganda.

Sanguinius is also a horrible mutant. Space Wolves, Black Dragons, Astropaths and Blood Angels all draw criticism for having some genetic problem. Sanguinius has giant wings and causes a pretty serious problem for all Blood Angels and their descendant Chapters except one (I think).

Agreed. Sanguinius is much better propaganda as he's just a body in stasis rather than walking around doing things.

pm713 wrote:
Agreed. Sanguinius is much better propaganda as he's just a body in stasis rather than walking around doing things.

That was really my entire point. Guilliman is going around doing things that piss off the people in power in the Imperium. Sanguinius isn't, and is instead a useful tool to unify the Imperium, as the (according to propaganda) most noble, most virtuous, and most holy of any of the primarchs.

Ah I've made a bit of a misunderstanding. I originally meant that if they were both alive then Sanguinius wouldn't be so much of a better Primarch than Roboute. Dead he definitely is.

Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

It reminds me of Roosevelt adding Supreme Court members partial to his views to get the New Deal through the Supreme Court. While superficially somewhat innocuous, it's an insane power grab.

Thats a good comparison for how it seems to go down, and I'd honestly like to see more on Guilliman and the HLoT. The politicking was much better in The Emperor's Legion, I think anyway, than in the Beast Arises.

 Melissia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king)

Guilliman isn't Sanguinius.

Funny you should mention that....

"The Lord commander returned to us at last from the hidden throne, ready to resume his great comission. In the years that come that day was marked with enarly as much reverance as the long eistablished Sanguinala" -p 258 The emperor's legion

yes Gulliman had oppisition. but he also had a LOT of support,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

It reminds me of Roosevelt adding Supreme Court members partial to his views to get the New Deal through the Supreme Court. While superficially somewhat innocuous, it's an insane power grab.

Reminds me more of Kings of old disbanding an old parliment when they desired a new one more likely to support him.

There’s also the fact that the book mentions the high lords burn out pretty quickly, so changing high lords isn’t that unusual, plus guillimaj did allow them to call the shots for a while until the almost got terra isolated

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

eh? who was thinking that the ones that disagreed with him got offed?

 TheSGC wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

eh? who was thinking that the ones that disagreed with him got offed?

Out of interest does it list the current High Lords?

TheSGC wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

eh? who was thinking that the ones that disagreed with him got offed?

There was back and forth the past couple pages about people assuming they were killed. It's not touched on, but can be assumed some probably went easily enough and others didnt.

Mr Morden wrote:

 TheSGC wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Having now finished The Emperor's Legion, they at no point say whether or not Guilliman has the HLoT that disagree with him killed. It does mention it being temporarily disbanded and then reformed after the initial Crisis facing Terra is averted. All and all the majority of people now seem fairly ok with that in universe.

eh? who was thinking that the ones that disagreed with him got offed?

Out of interest does it list the current High Lords?

Its doesn't list the post reform High Lords, but it does feature all of the pre-reform High Lords.

We can proably take a guess that the leader of the administrium was replaced.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

I just feel like there should be more people calling bs, since he split the legions with the intent of avoiding the exact situation he just put everyone in. Especially among the Astartes, I just think there should be more "hey wait a minute".

 Orblivion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

I just feel like there should be more people calling bs, since he split the legions with the intent of avoiding the exact situation he just put everyone in. Especially among the Astartes, I just think there should be more "hey wait a minute".

We have got to remember the Faith element here - basically to question RG is to question the son of God, anointed as such by a living Saint of the Church and whilst he might even allow it - the reactions of your own peers even if you were in the position to do so might be extremely negative.

The people in the Imperium, even the sophisticated ones are not like us - most will actually strongly believe and doubting or questioning God or at least his son is not something that would be done lightly.

Even Inquisitors and the like who are there to question are often as faithful as the next imperial citizen - sometimes more so. So if Inquisitor X says - hey the RG guy seems to be doing some odd stuff, should we not do something about it, there is a good chance that Inquisitors V, Z and D say - "I think its more relevant that we investigate your own beliefs my friend"

 Orblivion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

I just feel like there should be more people calling bs, since he split the legions with the intent of avoiding the exact situation he just put everyone in. Especially among the Astartes, I just think there should be more "hey wait a minute".

The situation hasn't changed at all since he left.

Don't forget, after splitting the legions, he was still Lord Commander. He's just stepping into a position he left vacant. He's not reforming the legions, he admits that parts of the Codex need a rewrite, and he's largely leaving the Chapters how they were. Just by him being in charge of the Imperium doesn't mean that he's taking over all Chapters directly. Hell, the Chapters were already following the HLOT anyway - the only difference between Legion and Chapter is that the Legion is multiple Chapters all bound to one person, who takes orders from Guilliman (and that one person not performing those orders means all their Chapters not doing it), and the Chapters taking orders from one person PER Chapter, who, if they choose to rebel, only takes their Chapter with them.

That's not changed at all.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

I just feel like there should be more people calling bs, since he split the legions with the intent of avoiding the exact situation he just put everyone in. Especially among the Astartes, I just think there should be more "hey wait a minute".

The situation hasn't changed at all since he left.

Don't forget, after splitting the legions, he was still Lord Commander. He's just stepping into a position he left vacant. He's not reforming the legions, he admits that parts of the Codex need a rewrite, and he's largely leaving the Chapters how they were. Just by him being in charge of the Imperium doesn't mean that he's taking over all Chapters directly. Hell, the Chapters were already following the HLOT anyway - the only difference between Legion and Chapter is that the Legion is multiple Chapters all bound to one person, who takes orders from Guilliman (and that one person not performing those orders means all their Chapters not doing it), and the Chapters taking orders from one person PER Chapter, who, if they choose to rebel, only takes their Chapter with them.

That's not changed at all.

He was Lord Commander, he was not Imperial Regent (which is more power than Horus ever held to be honest).

 Orblivion wrote:
He was Lord Commander, he was not Imperial Regent (which is more power than Horus ever held to be honest).

This is true, but Horus had direct control over Legions. Guilliman only has direct control over the Ultramarines CHAPTER.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the people expecting greater cynicism don't understand the mind set of the setting sufficantly. Gulliman.... to put it bluntly is so far outside of what we know culturally I think it's hard to truely fathom reaction to his return. This is man whom is BASICLY a bizzare cross of Jesus Christ (a religious leader, seen as the literal son of god) and King Arthur (a Great warrior king) both of whom where predicted to "return someday in a time of greatest need" Gulliman also PHYSICLY is going to be well known because he's been in stasis for 10 thousand years. everyone knows what he looks like. Sure some people would oppose him, but he's got so much power behind him they can't OPENLY oppose him. the Ecclesiarchy, he might not agree with but Gulliman's been smart eneugh to work with them.

I just feel like there should be more people calling bs, since he split the legions with the intent of avoiding the exact situation he just put everyone in. Especially among the Astartes, I just think there should be more "hey wait a minute".

The situation hasn't changed at all since he left.

Don't forget, after splitting the legions, he was still Lord Commander. He's just stepping into a position he left vacant. He's not reforming the legions, he admits that parts of the Codex need a rewrite, and he's largely leaving the Chapters how they were. Just by him being in charge of the Imperium doesn't mean that he's taking over all Chapters directly. Hell, the Chapters were already following the HLOT anyway - the only difference between Legion and Chapter is that the Legion is multiple Chapters all bound to one person, who takes orders from Guilliman (and that one person not performing those orders means all their Chapters not doing it), and the Chapters taking orders from one person PER Chapter, who, if they choose to rebel, only takes their Chapter with them.

That's not changed at all.

He was Lord Commander, he was not Imperial Regent (which is more power than Horus ever held to be honest).

Gulliman apparently reformed the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy, it sounds to me like Imperial regent may well be something he's been before, defacto if not de jure.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
He was Lord Commander, he was not Imperial Regent (which is more power than Horus ever held to be honest).

This is true, but Horus had direct control over Legions. Guilliman only has direct control over the Ultramarines CHAPTER.

And all their successors, and all the new chapters he's founded and has the demonstrated ability to replace imperial governors at will. Even if you assume for some reason the other chapters wouldn't obey (and so far dark angels seem the most likely to object but so far are compliant to the letter of the new order)

He's imperial regent, lord commander, and lord Guilliman (which is a title distinct from actually being Guilliman) and a religious icon to many. Direct control over just his singular chapter is simply wrong.

Voss wrote:
lord commander, and lord Guilliman.

Those are the same Title.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Voss wrote:
lord commander, and lord Guilliman.

Those are the same Title.

I thought Lord Gulliman was reserved for the formal head of the high lords, not the lord commander

The Lord Commander is the formal Title of the Head of the High Lords, and Lord Guilliman is the (really stupid, and not only stupid idea from that series, thanks Beast Arises) semi-formal alternate title of the Lord Commander.

Hmm. It's referred to (by the Cawl machine) as redundant, but it didn't seem literally so.

But anyway, the larger point is, he has a ridiculous amount of power.