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 lord_blackfang wrote:
The problem with these threads is always that people who like the game feel personally attacked by any criticism of the game and start gak slinging.

Those self same people usually refuse to believe someone else can give a non biased opinion on the self same system and assume any criticism of said system is because they are “WAAC” or not having enough terrain etc. Etc.


Ironically it’s also usually these “hypothetical” people that can’t seem to understand the difference between 7th HH and 7th 40k.


Funnily enough there was a poll over on 40k for grown up that (paraphrasing) asked if people wanted to change HH to 8th, the answer was a convincing “yes”, however another person put up a poll asking how many of them play 30k, something like this

I play 30k primarily and also play 40k
I play 40k primarily and also play 30k
I only play 30k
I only play 40k

Here’s the kicker.... when looking at both pols and who voted, 86% of the people who voted for the change were the same people who voted that they didn’t even play 30k... the irony is strong with that one.

Honestly, I would be pleased if 4 or 5 people on Dakka were giving a "three strikes and you're out" warning then banned for being pointlessly, consistently and overwhelmingly negative about all aspects of the hobby.

The way they post, it's as if they work for competitive companies and are here purely to spread dissent and dissatisfaction.

I don't give a rat's bum if they are longstanding members, or if they have mental health issues which means they find it difficult to express themselves in a way that's compatible with others.

The point of forums like this is surely for people who are invested in the hobby... and actively enjoy the hobby... to discuss what they do for fun in their free time without a the constant dirge of moaning losers.

Ben at TGA forums has got it right - if you've come here to relentlessly moan, it's time to leave.

Bud light vs other buds??? I understand the analogy but its useless here because I don't sit in the pub with my mates and role dice and trying and destroy my buddies bud light with my bud. A better analogy might be F1 or car racing where each car has strengths and weaknesses and some are stronger than others. The difference here again that one manufacterer doesn't make all the cars.

In this case GW and 1 design team of 5 guys make all the armies. They are making choices to make some armies stronger in some areas and weaker in others. The attempt to achieve balance to even out the relative strengths and weknesses by using RNG (dice).

In creating a game system with objective win/loss conditions and then creating a points system they have created something that is imbalanced. By having a points system they imply balance. Sure guardians are not equal to GK strike squads but when you have the total army of equivalent points there are massive disparities between Craftworld eldar and GK. There is wehre they failed.

Some people say it is not possible to achieve true balance...Thats a debate worth having. Have GW achieved balance in 8th? I think the answer is no with the massive caveat that its a whole lot better than any previous edition.

 Silentz wrote:
Honestly, I would be pleased if 4 or 5 people on Dakka were giving a "three strikes and you're out" warning then banned for being pointlessly, consistently and overwhelmingly negative about all aspects of the hobby.

The way they post, it's as if they work for competitive companies and are here purely to spread dissent and dissatisfaction.

I don't give a rat's bum if they are longstanding members, or if they have mental health issues which means they find it difficult to express themselves in a way that's compatible with others.

The point of forums like this is surely for people who are invested in the hobby... and actively enjoy the hobby... to discuss what they do for fun in their free time without a the constant dirge of moaning losers.

Ben at TGA forums has got it right - if you've come here to relentlessly moan, it's time to leave.

And here we go, moaning losers with mental issues secretly working for Privateer Press, because that's the only explanation for somebody not liking what you like.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Bud light vs other buds??? I understand the analogy but its useless here because I don't sit in the pub with my mates and role dice and trying and destroy my buddies bud light with my bud. A better analogy might be F1 or car racing where each car has strengths and weaknesses and some are stronger than others. The difference here again that one manufacterer doesn't make all the cars.

In this case GW and 1 design team of 5 guys make all the armies. They are making choices to make some armies stronger in some areas and weaker in others. The attempt to achieve balance to even out the relative strengths and weknesses by using RNG (dice).

In creating a game system with objective win/loss conditions and then creating a points system they have created something that is imbalanced. By having a points system they imply balance. Sure guardians are not equal to GK strike squads but when you have the total army of equivalent points there are massive disparities between Craftworld eldar and GK. There is wehre they failed.

Some people say it is not possible to achieve true balance...Thats a debate worth having. Have GW achieved balance in 8th? I think the answer is no with the massive caveat that its a whole lot better than any previous edition.

If by better than any other edition you mean “on par with 7th but worse than 3rd and 5th... “ we agree


Joking aside I still think 3rd was better as it did the full reboot but handled it in a better way, it didn’t just shift the bloat elsewhere and claim to Be “the most playtested edition ever” whilst simultaneously showing glaring issues that’s a casual playtested would have picked up ... it also didn’t have the marketing team interfering yet...

 Silentz wrote:
The point of forums like this is surely for people who are invested in the hobby... and actively enjoy the hobby... to discuss what they do for fun in their free time without a the constant dirge of moaning losers.

No, it's a place for discussion of all kinds, not merely mindless fanboying and white knighting. And many of us who post negative comments do enjoy the hobby. 8th edition is a game and GW's rule authors need to be fired for their incompetence, but the models and fluff (well, at least from 5th edition and earlier) are still awesome.

Also, "the hobby" is far more than just GW. Dakka is not a 40k site, and people who are primarily fans of other games are under no obligation to refrain from posting the truth about GW/40k. We are still part of "the hobby" no matter how much criticism we post.

The way they post, it's as if they work for competitive companies and are here purely to spread dissent and dissatisfaction.

I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your need for positivity that the only explanation you can see is some weird tinfoil hat theory about GW's critics being paid employees of GW's competition. Did you learn this from the republican party and all of their constant ranting about "paid protestors"? The simple fact is that GW produces a badly flawed product and many of us aren't happy about it. I'm sorry if it hurts you to see that truth, but that doesn't make it any less true.

We are probably also very invested in the hobby and wish it to be good.

I didn't buy 50.000+ points of 40k miniatures because I hated the game and the company, I bought them because I love the game, but in its current form it is not an enjoyable use of my time.

It's pretty insulting to tell me I only bought them so I could whine about something.

 Silentz wrote:
Honestly, I would be pleased if 4 or 5 people on Dakka were giving a "three strikes and you're out" warning then banned for being pointlessly, consistently and overwhelmingly negative about all aspects of the hobby.

The way they post, it's as if they work for competitive companies and are here purely to spread dissent and dissatisfaction.

I don't give a rat's bum if they are longstanding members, or if they have mental health issues which means they find it difficult to express themselves in a way that's compatible with others.

The point of forums like this is surely for people who are invested in the hobby... and actively enjoy the hobby... to discuss what they do for fun in their free time without a the constant dirge of moaning losers.

Ben at TGA forums has got it right - if you've come here to relentlessly moan, it's time to leave.

I think you're getting it twisted. The point of this forum is a place for people to come and extend their experiences of the hobby and speak to like minded people. That is gonna be the good the bad and the Fugly. Its also to generate massive traffic and sustain iteslf through ad revenue. The point of TGA forums is for the creator to have a strictly controlled environment in which their views are the ones that should be followed and everyone else is shown the door. If this forum was censored and restricted like TGA it wouldn't have even half the traffic it does. Please Dakka, never change! Never become that echo chamber of happy clappy yeah police!

 Silentz wrote:
Honestly, I would be pleased if 4 or 5 people on Dakka were giving a "three strikes and you're out" warning then banned for being pointlessly, consistently and overwhelmingly negative about all aspects of the hobby.

The way they post, it's as if they work for competitive companies and are here purely to spread dissent and dissatisfaction.

I don't give a rat's bum if they are longstanding members, or if they have mental health issues which means they find it difficult to express themselves in a way that's compatible with others.

The point of forums like this is surely for people who are invested in the hobby... and actively enjoy the hobby... to discuss what they do for fun in their free time without a the constant dirge of moaning losers.

Ben at TGA forums has got it right - if you've come here to relentlessly moan, it's time to leave.

So you're basically throwing a massive be happy or shut up to everyone? Plus insulting poeple by implying they should necesseraly be either sold to someone or mentally crippled. My good sir you are the prime example of the rediculous fanboy because of whom debates often turn to fistfights.

Also, if you want to post praise, please do so. If you want to have happy forums were everyone is praising their God workshop or whatever forum it is, you're not gonna find it on dakka, just go away, or else even if you may disagree try to understand that not everyone has to agree with you. Your opinion be it positive or whatever is not to be enforced and is not dued to be enforced to others in any form. But try to fix your own reasoning and admit that if we criticise something, that's because we want it to be good. Otherwise we just leave by ourself in complete silence. There's no way somebody should be ejected from a wargaming forum because he's grumpy about a miniature game.

And if you just wanted "poeple showing what they do for fun in their free time" you'll find countless articles of batreps, painting tutorials, terrain and models showcase, a galery... Where people simply comment on those whitout moaning.

You should actually rather be for again that "mental illness" accusation that is utterly toxic.

Was quite optimistic with the new GW and talk of 'the edition you asked for' upon release of 8th ed.

So a year on, I'm disappointed and haven't played a game of 40k in six months. The problems that where caused by turning 40k into Apocalypse in the previous edition are still there, and the promised balancing seems to be knee jerk reactions to things that come up in tournament play.

Speaking of tournament play, I'd glad for Reece and others that GW are engaging with ITC and happy for those people who enjoy playing in their tournaments.
However it's kind of frustrating for the people outside of that whose lists don't even remotely resemble tournament lists anymore.

I'll see if GW gets it right with Kill Team, otherwise I'll finally accept 40k isn't for me anymore and dump my minis on ebay

ITT:

People who self-confessedly either haven't played since 5th or haven't played in six months (putting their last game right around Chapter Approved, which improved things greatly, and way before the improvement that was the spring FAQ) telling people the "truth" about 40k.

It's not "be happy or shut up", but when you got people like peregrine who had nothing but negative to a dry about everything 40k for at least five years and hates the game, the way the game used to be, the lore, the setting, the company, the players, the shops, etc-it brings to question why is he even still here and keep pouring negativity.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT:

People who self-confessedly either haven't played since 5th or haven't played in six months (putting their last game right around Chapter Approved, which improved things greatly, and way before the improvement that was the spring FAQ) telling people the "truth" about 40k.

ITT: people who think that CA did anything meaningful to fix the game. IGOUGO is still there. Terrain is still broken. Everything is still an over-homogenized mess. CA's changes were better than nothing, but 8th edition is still a dumpster fire of bad design.

There is a well-implemented ignore function on this forum. It even let's you see the ignored people posts in case you care about their opinion on a specific topic and lets you take people off when their mindless hatred has cooled down.

You'd be surprised how few people you need to add to make the entire forum seem a lot more positive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine, when was your last game of 8th?

I do not think 8th is a perfect game and criticism can and should happen. General whining and moaning with catch all obvious problems are not helpfull here. example: "But guard..." can be said about near everything in their codex/ imperial soup.

So yes "moaners" are always too soon, valid critiscism and ideas should always be welcome.

The problem with Peregrine is not that hes negative. A ton of people is negative, has a ton of valid criticism, or some times just spur negative things but nobody bates an eye.

The problem with Peregrine is how radical he is in all of his statements, and how he considers his own opinion objetive facts.

So when people say "I don't like moaners", normally they aren't talking about 95% of the people that complaints about the game (For example, I have seen Formosa beeing a great critic of GW and 8th edition but in a civilised way), but about those out-liers that are like a Sharknado of negativity launching gaklike it is manna direct from God, that only wants to create conflict. So, Peregrine, Arbitrator calling people that likes 8th edition beaten up wives, etc...

EDIT: I know, I know, I'm calling names, what a bad person, blablabla. But I believe we are all adults here to be responsible for what we wrote, I prefer to be direct instead of doing tinted veiled references.

 Jidmah wrote:
Peregrine, when was your last game of 8th?

A while ago. 8th was effectively the end of playing 40k. I'd been holding on to hope that 8th would fix the problems of 7th, but instead the rules are almost as bad. But nothing has changed since the initial release, so it doesn't matter if I've wasted more hours on 8th since then. Terrible rules are still terrible rules.

 Galas wrote:
The problem with Peregrine is not that hes negative. A ton of people is negative, has a ton of valid criticism, or some times just spur negative things but nobody bates an eye.

The problem with Peregrine is how radical he is in all of his statements, and how he considers his own opinion objetive facts.

So when people say "I don't like moaners", normally they aren't talking about 95% of the people that complaints about the game (For example, I have seen Formosa beeing a great critic of GW and 8th edition but in a civilised way), but about those out-liers that are like a Sharknado of negativity launching gaklike it is manna direct from God, that only wants to create conflict. So, Peregrine, Arbitrator calling people that likes 8th edition beaten up wives, etc...

EDIT: I know, I know, I'm calling names, what a bad person, blablabla. But I believe we are all adults here to be responsible for what we wrote, I prefer to be direct instead of doing tinted veiled references.

You said sharknado... this makes me happy

 Galas wrote:
The problem with Peregrine is how radical he is in all of his statements, and how he considers his own opinion objetive facts.

You're confusing "radical" with "accurate" and assuming that extremely strong criticism must be because of a flaw in the critic, not a flaw in the subject of the criticism. You'll notice that on other subjects, X-Wing for example, my criticism is nowhere near as strong. That's because, unlike 40k, X-Wing is a pretty decent game with a strong core even if there are some flaws in specific units/upgrades (though 2.0 is moving in a very bad direction, so we'll see how long that lasts). But when GW continues to fail at basic game design and justify their failures with nonsense like FORGE THE NARRATIVE and BEER AND PRETZELS the appropriate comment on the subject is going to be that GW is failing badly. When you produce the gaming equivalent of a small child smearing their all over the wall and bragging about their "art" then you should expect to be told that it sucks, you aren't entitled to some positive comments just because it would be wrong to be 100% negative.

And I'm sorry I don't post "THIS IS JUST MY OPINION" with every comment I make, but I don't see you posting the same complaint to people who praise GW without saying "THIS IS JUST MY OPINION" every time.

If you don't like 40k because you want a set of rules crafted with a different objective, you go buy a different game. You don't say that the rules are made wrong, because they are not - they are probably in the best shape they've been so far, seems what you want from a wargame atm is just not what 40k is catering to.

No one here plays other games. And if the core rules make an army bad, then two things happened. Either the rules were made bad on purpose, and GW doesn't say that some armies are unplayable. Or the core rules are made bad. Considering both sets of rules are writen, by the same people, and then later GW nerfs some armies through core rules change, something has to be wrong. Just because it was more wrong in editions before this one does matter to me. Wrong is wrong.

Cool, some armies sucked in every edition, just because its your one this time doesn't make the game as a whole objectively worse. In fact even just looking at the number of trash armies, 8th is well ahead of other editions in terms of playability.

From what I have read on this very forum, GK were bad an edition ago, two editions ago and three editions ago too. And vice versa armies like eldar were never bad. Also why should I care that w40k now has fewer bad armies, then in editions I never played, when my army is bad right now?

GK were broken as feth in 5th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT:

People who self-confessedly either haven't played since 5th or haven't played in six months (putting their last game right around Chapter Approved, which improved things greatly, and way before the improvement that was the spring FAQ) telling people the "truth" about 40k.

*shrugs* If that's referring to me, I did indeed read through Chapter Approved and it didn't solve the problems I had with the game. I don't think you understood my post ?

Edit - Why do people get so defensive when other people say they don't like the game ? You've got to be pretty insecure in your choices if you let something like that bother you.
Internets eh ?

 BoomWolf wrote:
It's not "be happy or shut up", but when you got people like peregrine who had nothing but negative to a dry about everything 40k for at least five years and hates the game, the way the game used to be, the lore, the setting, the company, the players, the shops, etc-it brings to question why is he even still here and keep pouring negativity.

I give you a point here, but then we can just ignore him, we don't need a dakka commissar or something to have a guideline implemented by force on the forum so all the people who'll stay will be the fanboys being otherwise an at least as strong source of toxicity but the other way round (as proven by this wonderful manner the quoted poster had to basically call you mentally degenerate if you weren't taking his stance). The OP, once again, somewhat forgot to mention those. And if we actually hated the game we wouldn't spend any time in threads about it, let's be serious.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with Peregrine is how radical he is in all of his statements, and how he considers his own opinion objetive facts.

You're confusing "radical" with "accurate" and assuming that extremely strong criticism must be because of a flaw in the critic, not a flaw in the subject of the criticism. You'll notice that on other subjects, X-Wing for example, my criticism is nowhere near as strong. That's because, unlike 40k, X-Wing is a pretty decent game with a strong core even if there are some flaws in specific units/upgrades (though 2.0 is moving in a very bad direction, so we'll see how long that lasts). But when GW continues to fail at basic game design and justify their failures with nonsense like FORGE THE NARRATIVE and BEER AND PRETZELS the appropriate comment on the subject is going to be that GW is failing badly. When you produce the gaming equivalent of a small child smearing their all over the wall and bragging about their "art" then you should expect to be told that it sucks, you aren't entitled to some positive comments just because it would be wrong to be 100% negative.

And I'm sorry I don't post "THIS IS JUST MY OPINION" with every comment I make, but I don't see you posting the same complaint to people who praise GW without saying "THIS IS JUST MY OPINION" every time.

I see you chose to stand your ground. Thats totally fine.

About your last line, your equivalent in the "praising GW" side is Hollow, the dude that called people stupid and man-children for disliking anything about nu-GW (Thinking more about it, Hollow is the equivalent of Arbitrator. I believe your equivalent would be Mac Doc Grostnik). I have of him the same opinion I have of you. Ok, no, to be honest, I actually like to read your comments, because I find magical how, even agreeing with you most of the time, the way you express yourself make me want to oppose you with every inch of my soul

EDIT: To add a last line about this "everlasting positivity" vs "eternal negativity" debate... theres a reason why, in psychology, they teach you to stay away from negative people, and look forward positive people. When you want honest criticism, you shouldn't look for neither, but for a rational person in the middle. But in your everyday life? Eternal negativity end up taking a tool in your emotional healt. That doesn't happens with people being always positive. Yeah, they can become annoying at some point. But thats all.

I’ve played sparingly since chapter approved but that’s for several reasons.

Firstly: we are primarily a 30k group, it’s just the game we prefer using the rules we prefer.

Secondly: 8th to me is just too lacklustre, same as 7th 40k, as soon as the book dropped we all went over it and noticed a lack in key areas WE enjoyed, they still haven’t fixed the psy phase and have repeated the mistakes of editions passed with it, I remember leaving a long post about it to GW prior to 8th dropping, cover and movement took a big hit too, while they have recently tried to address this, it didn’t go far enough.

Lastly: I’m waiting, I don’t see 8th as a finished product but fully expect it to be relatively soon, I think it’s fair that I criticise Gw formissing some glaring issues but I don’t think it’s fair that I haven’t applauded them for Trying to resolve them.

I see a lot of people with rightful complaints about those who are only negative about the current edition of 40k. Strangely, I don't see the same for those who are only positive about the current edition of 40k. Strange observation.

I just love the people in every post screaming that 8th is the "terrible" or some more explicit word.

It most just really rub them the wrong way when GT's are selling out in 48 hours what they used to never be able to achieve. That stores can barely keep product stocked and that every codex release (after grey knights) seems to have a little something for everyone.

Does the game need improvement? obviously and I don't think anyone would argue that its perfect
Is the game terrible? Nope the proof is in how well its selling and how tournaments are filling up like no other previous edition

Also if you truly hate 8th and cant stand it I would suggest another hobby or game. Im not saying this because I don't want complaints about the game or want those that disagree to leave. I say this because if you really think they're going to drastically change a game that's selling like this, your in for a bad time.

Asmodios wrote:
Also if you truly hate 8th and cant stand it I would suggest another hobby or game. Im not saying this because I don't want complaints about the game or want those that disagree to leave. I say this because if you really think they're going to drastically change a game that's selling like this, your in for a bad time.

This, basically. 40k's flaws exist undeniably, but there are other games out there with different flaws that may be more to your liking, if you don't like 40k.

That doesn't mean that 40k is bad, because the goal of a hobby wargame is to have fun, and games should be judged on that metric. Since fun is subjective, there is no way to say a game is "bad" objectively (despite what Peregrine's senseless and hateful ranting might want you to believe). Some people have fun with weird historical games that I don't enjoy - those games might be bad for me but I will never call them objectively bad, because other people are clearly having fun with them.

I'm sure if Peregrine ever caught people playing them though he'd have an apoplectic stroke, since a large portion of these niche games preserve IGOUGO and have generally irrelevant terrain - especially WRT napoleonics, medieval, and ancients. Most units in the game are disrupted by terrain, so they stay away from it, and the units that are good in terrain aren't typically good in an open field, so they just chill in their forest taking pot-shots/throwing javelins / having breakfast.

Asmodios wrote:
It most just really rub them the wrong way when GT's are selling out in 48 hours what they used to never be able to achieve.

Not really. GTs sold out in the past, and tournament 40k adds significant changes to the game GW publishes. If anything this is a concession that there is demand for a better game that GW is not meeting.

That stores can barely keep product stocked

That's funny, because I see plenty of product on store shelves. If there's any global shortage it's because GW is making small production runs out of fear of having excess product in the warehouse, a statement of low confidence in their own products. But that's not a huge problem, inventory is still going out. If your local store's shelves are empty perhaps it is because your local store is in financial trouble and can't afford to buy more inventory?

Is the game terrible? Nope the proof is in how well its selling and how tournaments are filling up like no other previous edition

By that standard McDonalds is a good restaurant because it sells a ton. And 8th edition isn't selling all that well. GW as a whole is doing better than the worst days of 7th edition, but we don't have individual sales numbers for their various products and their overall revenue isn't exceeding the levels they were already at before the worst days of 7th and AoS threatened to kill the company.

What if those who dintblike 8th, and prefer other editions just play those?

I've been seriously considering getting a copy of 4th and the relevant codexes to play with.