Can GW just kill classic marines already?

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**AngryAngel80**

BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine.

it only took making your chapter a blatent mary sue to do so

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agamemnon2 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.

codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

thats proably the best way to do so. it's a big galaxy and it's easy to miss a space marine chapter. the lore is filled with examples of this.

It's ok, Primaris are the biggest mary sues since ward marines, my chapter will survive as I put as much thought into them denying Primaris as the primaris line had in its creation.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

BrianDavion wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.

... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary

Then the Primaris take up the name sake of the chapter in their honor assuming they all died and setup shop. When the non-Primaris get back from their crusade miraculously surviving they find they been replaced completely with Primaris wearing their chapter colors and calling themselves the same name. This sounds a lot like how it probably will go for the Lamentors.

**BrianDavion**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.

... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary

Then the Primaris take up the name sake of the chapter in their honor assuming they all died and setup shop. When the non-Primaris get back from their crusade miraculously surviving they find they been replaced completely with Primaris wearing their chapter colors and calling themselves the same name. This sounds a lot like how it probably will go for the Lamentors.

que civil war with both side assuming the other are heretics

**The Newman**

GW featured The Emperor's Pointy Sticks in a build-your-own-chapter showcase. So long as Fren and Krep are still driving a Land Raider with turn signals GW can't kill off mini-marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
que civil war with both side assuming the other are heretics

It's the 40k way.

**AngryAngel80**

As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.

**frozenwastes**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.

You read Plague War?

Spoiler:

**Isengard**

Personally I think there are many advantages to primaris marines. The models are simply better, the scale is right, they have much more of a feel of what marines ought to be, i.e. bigger and stronger than ordinary people.

Where I have an issue is the fluff. GW did not come up with anything sensible in terms of shoehorning them in. I assume they produced some testers for more 'realistic' (in the background) marines, realised they were cool figures and then decided how they could get them in. Primaris is a fudge and one of the weakest fluff moves they have made in a long time. The whole premise is ludicrous in so many ways. It has long been clear that the Emperor is a genius on a god-like level and only he has the intellect and capacity to do something so momentous as to design a line of new living beings. To allow Cawl to do the same is non-sensical on so many levels. It is heresy in any meaningful reading of the 40K background, there is no reasonable explanation for how he was able to do this, the vast amount of tailored new tech is totally at odds with a stagnated humanity not making any advances. Why on earth would the indoctrinated and ultra-conservative Imperium have accepted this innovation? Etc, etc.

So for me the models are great, they are what marines ought to be like and solve the scale issues which have dogged marines for years. I like them and I have some. But fluff wise they are a huge glaring wtf and I find myself conflicted about them on the battlefield since they just don't fit the fluff in my opinion.

**BrianDavion**

except Cawl didn't do the same, he just cludged some additional primarch DNA onto the thing, doing the exact same thing corax did during the heresy

**fraser1191**

BrianDavion wrote:
except Cawl didn't do the same, he just cludged some additional primarch DNA onto the thing, doing the exact same thing corax did during the heresy

Yet people crow it can't be done

Isn't there an pink evil marine that does the same thing every other day?

**Martel732**

The fluff started as a massive satire. Now they are playing straight, and the tech phobia doesnt hold up.

Cawl just improved emperors base tech. Happens all the time in science. The emperor likely is not as smart as everyone thinks regardlless of the fluff.

**ChargerIIC**

frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

I was glad to see the Blood Ravens White Dwarf article and new codex clarify that better. Turns out some chapters haven't gotten any primaris and some are 'trial running' them in only a single company and not allowing the 'potential taint' to reach their other companies.

There's been three waves of primaris in the current fiction and apparently some of them still can't catch a break after 100 years of service and personally being vouched for by the Custodes and the High Council of Terra. Sounds pretty grimdark to me.

**fraser1191**

ChargerIIC wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

I was glad to see the Blood Ravens White Dwarf article and new codex clarify that better. Turns out some chapters haven't gotten any primaris and some are 'trial running' them in only a single company and not allowing the 'potential taint' to reach their other companies.

There's been three waves of primaris in the current fiction and apparently some of them still can't catch a break after 100 years of service and personally being vouched for by the Custodes and the High Council of Terra. Sounds pretty grimdark to me.

Literally sounds like the 40k community

**Agamemnon2**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Crimson wrote:
I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.

... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary

Then the Primaris take up the name sake of the chapter in their honor assuming they all died and setup shop. When the non-Primaris get back from their crusade miraculously surviving they find they been replaced completely with Primaris wearing their chapter colors and calling themselves the same name. This sounds a lot like how it probably will go for the Lamentors.

I can dig it :-)

**BrianDavion**

fraser1191 wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

I was glad to see the Blood Ravens White Dwarf article and new codex clarify that better. Turns out some chapters haven't gotten any primaris and some are 'trial running' them in only a single company and not allowing the 'potential taint' to reach their other companies.

There's been three waves of primaris in the current fiction and apparently some of them still can't catch a break after 100 years of service and personally being vouched for by the Custodes and the High Council of Terra. Sounds pretty grimdark to me.

Literally sounds like the 40k community

nah by 9th edition we'll largely forget about primaris and find something new to complain about. when's the last time you heard people bitch about the stormtalon?

**Insectum7**

When's the last time you even SAW a Storm Talon? I haven't seen one on the table since 6th.

**BrianDavion**

Insectum7 wrote:
When's the last time you even SAW a Storm Talon? I haven't seen one on the table since 6th.

technicly 5 minutes ago it's on my shelf

**AngryAngel80**

Martel732 wrote:
The fluff started as a massive satire. Now they are playing straight, and the tech phobia doesnt hold up.

Cawl just improved emperors base tech. Happens all the time in science. The emperor likely is not as smart as everyone thinks regardlless of the fluff.

None of that matters when you're arguing fluff points. Either none of it matters, or it all matters. Now if it doesn't matter to you, that's fair enough. It does matter to some of us however as the background however hurr durr it may be got a great many of us into the game.

This isn't real science, it's religious dogma infused dark age technology of the future. Applying actual scientific process to it is flawed at best and silly at worst. The emperor is a god like being whose very soul is strong enough to be a beacon and a protection to countless billions during warp travel through space even many thousands of years past when he should have died due to hand wavium super space tech that has no real reason to work at all. I imagine he's every bit as smart and powerful as the fluff states.

**Racerguy180**

BrianDavion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
When's the last time you even SAW a Storm Talon? I haven't seen one on the table since 6th.

technicly 5 minutes ago it's on my shelf

mines pretty useful, it's the mobile pain in the ass it needs to be. I use it often.

**Agamemnon2**

Ironically, my Eternity Wardens force does have one. I've a weird assortment of vehicles, in that I have one Rhino, one Razorback/Rhino, a Land Speeder Storm, two Dreadnoughts and a Stormtalon, but I guess I spent all my tank-love on my Guard army instead :-D

**AngryAngel80**

I always felt like marines were very infantry focused as being the real heart of any marine force.

Like my Deathwatch don't have many vehicles it's focused almost entirely on the infantry with some vehicles to support. I feel like that is the " way " of marine forces.

**Martel732**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The fluff started as a massive satire. Now they are playing straight, and the tech phobia doesnt hold up.

Cawl just improved emperors base tech. Happens all the time in science. The emperor likely is not as smart as everyone thinks regardlless of the fluff.

None of that matters when you're arguing fluff points. Either none of it matters, or it all matters. Now if it doesn't matter to you, that's fair enough. It does matter to some of us however as the background however hurr durr it may be got a great many of us into the game.

This isn't real science, it's religious dogma infused dark age technology of the future. Applying actual scientific process to it is flawed at best and silly at worst. The emperor is a god like being whose very soul is strong enough to be a beacon and a protection to countless billions during warp travel through space even many thousands of years past when he should have died due to hand wavium super space tech that has no real reason to work at all. I imagine he's every bit as smart and powerful as the fluff states.

I disagree with your bimodal choice. The fluff mostly doesnt matter to me. Even with a superficial interest, i wonder how long gw can sell grimdark. Its not 1990 anymore.

I cant accept that 40k somehow makes incremental improvement impossible.

I started the game and then found out how insane the background is/was.

**Asherian Command**

frozenwastes wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.

You read Plague War?

Spoiler:

G-man, for the first time ever, reads the Lectio Divinitatus after his life was saved by a 14 year old living saint. He ends up totally off balance and angry after falling into Mortarions trap so completely and then being rescued by a golden presence emanating from the girl that the custodes present experiences as being the emperor.

It was actually a really bad novel with primarchs acting so dumb I'd say they are stupider than the average person rather than superior. Both G-man and Mortarion fail to get what they want because they're too dumb.

Yeah the new dark imperium books are just so hard to read in terms of :

1. All the characters act like kids.

2. These are more like clip notes than actual chapters.

3. Fenix is a terrible character nuff said

4. Sicarius is a far more interesting character and should've been primarisized.....

Knights of Macragge on the other hand was fantastic, and plays out like a star trek episode, the primaris are all extremely cocky saying stuff like 'we are going to replace you all!" In one sequence a primaris marine gets his ass handed to him by a bunch of locals. The normal astartes are not only shown to be more experienced but understand how to deal with humans far easier than primaris can. its such a stark contrast in that book. And a nice change of primaris being "WE ARE BETTER AT EVERYTHING!" In this the primaris are merely tehre and their inexperience constantly worsens the situation.

i love the idea that Primaris are the last stepp for marines, that neophytes after learning how to use power armor can become primaris. Instead making primaris only a step in true space marines.

So it would go Scout Squad - Tactical / Devastator / Assault Marine - Primaris Marine Intercessor / Eliminator / Aggressor / Hellblasters / Reivers / Vanguard Marines

That would fix much of my issues with the current lore

In my chapter that is basically how it works, as the chapter sees it as an evolutionary step instead of a 'we are completely seperate brotherhoods' which is becoming very common in most of 40k.

Some interesting lore so far has been the 'two brotherhoods' ynnari craftworld, space marine primaris, etc. They are divisions throughout most if not all the faction in 40k now with the exception of tyranids which are just beasts.

Classic marines have their place and them getting rid of some kits I would applaud....

**Insectum7**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I always felt like marines were very infantry focused as being the real heart of any marine force.

Like my Deathwatch don't have many vehicles it's focused almost entirely on the infantry with some vehicles to support. I feel like that is the " way " of marine forces.

100%. Everything else is to get the infantry into battle.

**BrianDavion**

Asherian Command wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.

You read Plague War?

Spoiler:

G-man, for the first time ever, reads the Lectio Divinitatus after his life was saved by a 14 year old living saint. He ends up totally off balance and angry after falling into Mortarions trap so completely and then being rescued by a golden presence emanating from the girl that the custodes present experiences as being the emperor.

It was actually a really bad novel with primarchs acting so dumb I'd say they are stupider than the average person rather than superior. Both G-man and Mortarion fail to get what they want because they're too dumb.

Yeah the new dark imperium books are just so hard to read in terms of :

1. All the characters act like kids.

2. These are more like clip notes than actual chapters.

3. Fenix is a terrible character nuff said

4. Sicarius is a far more interesting character and should've been primarisized.....

Knights of Macragge on the other hand was fantastic, and plays out like a star trek episode, the primaris are all extremely cocky saying stuff like 'we are going to replace you all!" In one sequence a primaris marine gets his ass handed to him by a bunch of locals. The normal astartes are not only shown to be more experienced but understand how to deal with humans far easier than primaris can. its such a stark contrast in that book. And a nice change of primaris being "WE ARE BETTER AT EVERYTHING!" In this the primaris are merely tehre and their inexperience constantly worsens the situation.

i love the idea that Primaris are the last stepp for marines, that neophytes after learning how to use power armor can become primaris. Instead making primaris only a step in true space marines.

So it would go Scout Squad - Tactical / Devastator / Assault Marine - Primaris Marine Intercessor / Eliminator / Aggressor / Hellblasters / Reivers / Vanguard Marines

That would fix much of my issues with the current lore

In my chapter that is basically how it works, as the chapter sees it as an evolutionary step instead of a 'we are completely seperate brotherhoods' which is becoming very common in most of 40k.

Some interesting lore so far has been the 'two brotherhoods' ynnari craftworld, space marine primaris, etc. They are divisions throughout most if not all the faction in 40k now with the exception of tyranids which are just beasts.

Classic marines have their place and them getting rid of some kits I would applaud....

dark imperium was a boxed set tie in novel, I thought it was pretty good all things considered, but that was partly because my expectations where that it would be little more then a glorified commerical for the new boxed set.

**AngryAngel80**

Martel732 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The fluff started as a massive satire. Now they are playing straight, and the tech phobia doesnt hold up.

Cawl just improved emperors base tech. Happens all the time in science. The emperor likely is not as smart as everyone thinks regardlless of the fluff.

None of that matters when you're arguing fluff points. Either none of it matters, or it all matters. Now if it doesn't matter to you, that's fair enough. It does matter to some of us however as the background however hurr durr it may be got a great many of us into the game.

This isn't real science, it's religious dogma infused dark age technology of the future. Applying actual scientific process to it is flawed at best and silly at worst. The emperor is a god like being whose very soul is strong enough to be a beacon and a protection to countless billions during warp travel through space even many thousands of years past when he should have died due to hand wavium super space tech that has no real reason to work at all. I imagine he's every bit as smart and powerful as the fluff states.

I disagree with your bimodal choice. The fluff mostly doesnt matter to me. Even with a superficial interest, i wonder how long gw can sell grimdark. Its not 1990 anymore.

I cant accept that 40k somehow makes incremental improvement impossible.

I started the game and then found out how insane the background is/was.

I guess its good you don't need to accept it at all, it just needs to be. As for the world being less grimdark I'm not sure you keep up on the news but the world is more grimdark everyday. You also can disagree all you want, it's a matter of opinion I just happen to think there is more in the fluff to back up my view on it than yours. The science in the system is handwavium at its best and trying to justify anything, including progress with reason is laughably sad when the whole basis of the world is gods crafted from our emotions fighting against a human god emperor so powerful even as a living corpse he keeps alive countless billions who are under constant pressure from living robots, invaders without number from areas unknown, those same emotion gods, and seemingly soulless aliens with super tech while the human tech is kept in shape with prayers and rituals.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
I always felt like marines were very infantry focused as being the real heart of any marine force.

Like my Deathwatch don't have many vehicles it's focused almost entirely on the infantry with some vehicles to support. I feel like that is the " way " of marine forces.

100%. Everything else is to get the infantry into battle.

Hell yeah, well except for Dreads, which I feel are more like really big marines than a vehicle.

**Apple fox**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The fluff started as a massive satire. Now they are playing straight, and the tech phobia doesnt hold up.

Cawl just improved emperors base tech. Happens all the time in science. The emperor likely is not as smart as everyone thinks regardlless of the fluff.

None of that matters when you're arguing fluff points. Either none of it matters, or it all matters. Now if it doesn't matter to you, that's fair enough. It does matter to some of us however as the background however hurr durr it may be got a great many of us into the game.

This isn't real science, it's religious dogma infused dark age technology of the future. Applying actual scientific process to it is flawed at best and silly at worst. The emperor is a god like being whose very soul is strong enough to be a beacon and a protection to countless billions during warp travel through space even many thousands of years past when he should have died due to hand wavium super space tech that has no real reason to work at all. I imagine he's every bit as smart and powerful as the fluff states.

I would have rather used this fluff to tone down the emperor and the primarchs a bit, leave more of it in myth but push more of the dogma itself. Any very smart person could, the primarchs are special but not as special as thought. Cowl has a large group that agree with him and support him, it’s why he is not dead.

**Insectum7**

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
I always felt like marines were very infantry focused as being the real heart of any marine force.

Like my Deathwatch don't have many vehicles it's focused almost entirely on the infantry with some vehicles to support. I feel like that is the " way " of marine forces.

100%. Everything else is to get the infantry into battle.

Hell yeah, well except for Dreads, which I feel are more like really big marines than a vehicle.

Old days had it so a Dread could ride in a Land Raider. For a time possibly a Thunderhawk. Then Pods, and technically still pods counting Forge World. Nowadays they have the Storm Raven, which is convenient.

**Ishagu**

If GW killed the classic Marines would all the haters and complainers finally disappear or will they simply keep complaining for all eternity? Lol
It has been two years and some are still whinging about the Primaris. It takes less time to get over a failed marriage!

**Ratius**

Cant you just tune out the moaners?
By goading them out, you enable the circle of tedium.

**Ishagu**

You may well be right...