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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.





Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.

Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.




Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.

Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?

Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 21:08:27


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Insectum7 wrote:
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."

Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.

Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"

Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."

Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."

Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Matt Swain wrote:
Spoiler:
Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.





Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.

Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.




Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.

Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?

Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.

^Such is the glorious insanity of 40K. May it remain insane forever.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




 Insectum7 wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.

Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.

Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.

The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.

The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.

Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.


Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.

Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.

Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.

I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."



I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.

The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Charistoph wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."

Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.

Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"

Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."

Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."

Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.
+1 Although you forgot the other Storm Trooper quivering in the corner and witnessing it all in total horror.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.





Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.

Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.




Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.

Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?

Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.




That is a good point, a vulnerability in 40k ships, what does the tonnage excess mean if they don't use it efficiently. I know some 40k ships have auto loaders for their systems and some use as you described human labor to load their weapons. Thus if the Lunar class using those methods has gross inefficiencies despite its tonnage is it more comparable to a Allegiant class Battle Cruiser ( a 2.2 KM long ISD variant) as opposed to a Praetor 2?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






panzerfront14 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.

Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.

Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.

The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.

The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.

Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.


Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.

Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.

Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.

I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."



I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.

The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?
Right, but there might be something as simple as the amount of energy used/spent and possibly being an order of magnatude off. The point is that tonnage is just not a very good metric.

Star Wars also has this problem where the primary sources (the movies) are themselves pretty inconsistent. 40K, despite being weirder, seems to be more consistent in it's primary source of content, which is the game/codexes. In SW you have goofy things like space "bombers" that "drop" bombs in 0g ffs. Or the super-duper-ultra Death-planet-Star thing that shoots lasers as multiple solar systems, but they're all visible from one of the planets or whatever the **** happened in The Force Awakens. Even with the Warp and Daemons 40K seems to handle it's own logic more consistently.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Insectum7 wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.

Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.

Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.

The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.

The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.

Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.


Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.

Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.

Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.

I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."



I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.

The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?
Right, but there might be something as simple as the amount of energy used/spent and possibly being an order of magnatude off. The point is that tonnage is just not a very good metric.

Star Wars also has this problem where the primary sources (the movies) are themselves pretty inconsistent. 40K, despite being weirder, seems to be more consistent in it's primary source of content, which is the game/codexes. In SW you have goofy things like space "bombers" that "drop" bombs in 0g ffs. Or the super-duper-ultra Death-planet-Star thing that shoots lasers as multiple solar systems, but they're all visible from one of the planets or whatever the **** happened in The Force Awakens. Even with the Warp and Daemons 40K seems to handle it's own logic more consistently.


With you on the bomber 110%, friend. So much wrong with that i don't even know where to begin...

If you've having a huge load of bombs and a small ship why not make the bombs on the front of the ship, have the ship basically accelerate it towards the target, the separate the bomb rack and have it basically fragment and scatted the bombs over the target?

Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened. Kind of like how superman returns treated the last two superman movies before it.

See, the 40k universe only works because we accept the premise of 'forget the power of technology, the promise of science' because basically the warp has seeped into the material universe and royally kicked conventional reality, science, technology, etc to the curb. Utterly insane things work because the chaos gods and the warp like insanity and madness, so a fanatically insane power can win on the premise of faith and making people toil and suffer en masse because the powers of the warp gwt off on that and affect reality in its favor

Sure, star wars has the force, and in the ghawdawful last movie we saw one force user shut down an entire fleet of ships until he was killed by a woman with laser sword. Both have wild card plot device powers, the force or the warp, that make the universe work in ways that let one kid who'se never been in a fighter before succeed at blowing up a massive battlestation where experienced pilots failed and a bunch of guys screaming 'for da emprah!" can rush at an emplaced gunline with melee weapons and take it down, with massive casualties because the warp gets off on lots of dying and stuff.

In WW1 the french army had a ridiculous and idiotic concept called "elan", which more or less said that if a lot iof men died tryiong to do something, it gave the cause they died for a "moral force' that would give their side victory. I remember hearing about that on a historical show about WW1. The french military apparently believed that if enough people died for victory, some 'moral force' would energize the army and give it victory because of their sacrifice.

The french abandoned this after WW1 and it's clear failures therein.

Well, in 40k that kind of thing actually does work. So the 40k universe has premises that make it totally separate from other universes.

Really asking who would win between 40k and almost any other universe is like asking "who would win in a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?" Well, if you drop the bear in the ocean, the shark wins. if you drop the shark in a forest the bear wins.

if you drop star wars ships in the 40k universe than yeah, they lose as 'the warp' infects their ships, turns their floor droids, astromech droids, etc, into psychotic murder machines, their minds get headfethed by chaos gods and daemons, hyperjumps let horrors of the warp into the ships, etc.

If you drop 40k ships in the star wars universe, they get used for target practice as there's no astronavicom to guide them, they have no astra telepathica to send them information, etc. Meanwhile tie fighters and xwings buzz around them, avoiding their huge guns easily while pecking them to death.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/18 21:51:07


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."

Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.

Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"

Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."

Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."

Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.
+1 Although you forgot the other Storm Trooper quivering in the corner and witnessing it all in total horror.

The dead don't quiver in horror.

I have to admit, I was tempted to add something like that in.

Scene 2:

Chief Engineer Bentamijn Ojvur scrambled to scramble the console he was working on as he heard more booming out the hallway. Heavy stomps, loud cracks of ballistics, and explosives mixed with the discharges of blaster carbines punctuated his work.

His staff's own hands were trembling as they struggled to lock down their own stations. Tech Iam Boond jumped as white armored Troopers scrambled and shut the door, sealing it. The booming of ballistics stopped, but the heavy tromp of their power armor kept getting louder.

Iam screamed, "This is crazy! Why are they even hear? How did they get here?!"

"Silence!", Bentamijn barked. "We can't have them thinking we're in here!"

A high-pitched whine started screaming on the other side of the door, causing the Troopers to turn back. Each one nervously clutching their carbines to their chest. The whine deepened, then sparks flew out on the side of the door. What looked to be a primitive, but powerful saw poked through and then began making its way around the edges.

Iam noticed the Troopers instantly drop their carbines in to firing position, but their legs trembled. If Stormtroopers are terrified of these guys, what does that mean for us?, penetrated his thoughts as he felt something warm his trousers.

With a sudden boom and crash, the wall fell inward, crushing a poorly placed Trooper. All the techs turned to face the door along with the engineer. More booms overwhelmed the station, causing Iam's ears to ring to silence. With each boom, a Stormtrooper fell, his torso exploding. Giant hulks which reminded Iam of the stories of the Dark Trooper project stomped in to the room. Black and forboding, with red shoulders and white cloth covering the middle. Each step felt through the floor in to his bones.

The giants scanned the room with twin-barreled monstrosities following the scan. The giants lowered their weapons with one sheathing a sword. The one with the sword then reached up and removed his helmet. He looked human, but features taken on a giant's form! The unmasked giant then reached to Engineer Ojvur and grabbed him by the neck. Iam felt his frame shake as he saw Bentamijn's mouth yammering as he was lifted up. The giant then bit down on the Engineers head. A swift jerk scalped the engineer, and Iam could finally hear something besides the ringing and the booms as he heard his own voice start gibbering. The gibbering somehow got louder as the giant bit deeper in to the Engineer's head.

A movement to the right of his eye caused him to turn as he sees another giant with his mask off reaching for him. A scream in his own voice was the last thing he heard as the massive glove with that chainsaw engulfed him.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/19 04:49:17


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Or 40k troops board an imperial ship and begin causing trouble, so thee captain orders the sections to turn up their artifical gravity several times.

Heavy combat droids with large accurate blaster weapons go rolling it and start shooting marines who are suddenly weighing several times their usual weight. bolters flare off their shields.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Matt Swain wrote:

Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.

For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:

Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.

For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.


See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.

the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.

luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.

40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.

BTW you were right, the third one was rancid!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 23:11:48


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





 Matt Swain wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:

Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.

For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.


See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.

the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.

luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.

40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.

BTW you were right, the third one was rancid!


I mean, the startrack redshirts would like a word with you regarding the dead man walking point. To where it's become a trope. Most scifi has a bit of an issue with that. "We want the universe to be super dangerous. But a handful of people can wander around a battlefield like it's a light summer rain."
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Do nerds ever tire of saying how much X episode of Star Wars sucks?

Also, the last 3? pages of this thread haven't added anything. You don't have to accept or disprove internet rando #3847625's opinion. Make your point and move on.

I highly doubt any post on any forum has ever changed an opinion.

My contention:
Star Wars ships are comparable to BFG ships. Even if bigger and "more powerful" 40k ships have such incredible inefficiencies that the smaller SW ships are not that much worse.

Just as Star Trek weapons are variable, so are a lot of Star Wars weapons. We already know that blasters can fire a stun blast since that is how storm troopers get Leia.

Perhaps, as a standard feature on Star Wars blasters they have a "power setting" where the safety is on real world firearms. That will give you Safe, Stun, Low Power and High Power? This could explain how "main characters" get little flesh wounds from carbine/rifles (Stormtroopers are using low power?) and yet Heroes can blow fist sized holes through both sides of a Stormtrooper in armor?

This is really the only way I can see blasters zapping characters and only singing their clothes while in other scenes they are blowing off chunks of walls or causing explosions. Alternately, that scene where Leia got zapped there were two shots, with identical effects, but neither damaged the wall...thus it could be that the blast hit the wall, and she just got a portion of the blast and not the whole thing.

-STS


Grey Knights 712 points Imperial Stormtroopers 3042 points Lamenters 1787 points Xenomorphs 995 points 1200 points + 1790 points 770 points 369 points of Imperial Guard to bolster the Sisters of Battle
Kain said: "This will surely end in tears for everyone involved. How very 40k."

 
   
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cody.d. wrote:
I mean, the startrack . . .
Star WHAT?!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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cody.d. wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:

Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.

For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.


See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.

the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.

luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.

40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.

BTW you were right, the third one was rancid!


I mean, the startrack redshirts would like a word with you regarding the dead man walking point. To where it's become a trope. Most scifi has a bit of an issue with that. "We want the universe to be super dangerous. But a handful of people can wander around a battlefield like it's a light summer rain."


Yeah, as i said, 40k and trek have immortal characters the story revolves around types. I think 40k overdoes it a bit more than most universes, practically to the level of "The general's coffee was two degrees centigrade below what he consider acceptable, execute the entire kitchen staff and their nearest kin!" or "Someone in the crowd as we marched into the city shouted "Feth the emperor!" so we summarily executed the entire population of 20 million to be sure we got the heretic."

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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 Matt Swain wrote:

Yeah, as i said, 40k and trek have immortal characters the story revolves around types. I think 40k overdoes it a bit more than most universes, practically to the level of "The general's coffee was two degrees centigrade below what he consider acceptable, execute the entire kitchen staff and their nearest kin!" or "Someone in the crowd as we marched into the city shouted "Feth the emperor!" so we summarily executed the entire population of 20 million to be sure we got the heretic."
I want to push back on that and say that it's rarely the named characters that do that stuff. I'd argue that the subject of those stories is rather not any individual character but more the "character" of the setting itself. Like, the Imperium IS the character. The "Imperial mentality", if that makes sense.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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I suppose to put a more obscure one in the original spirit of the thread, might I propose a Hierarchy Grunt from Universe at War?
Spoiler:


(and yes, this is where my avatar came from)


Can watch an example of Grunts in action here to get a better idea of how they behave in battle. They feel similar to Marines as genetically engineered heavy infantry, though in their home faction they fulfill more of a cannon fodder role (relatively cheap for their stats, generally fielded in large numbers).

Physical Traits:
Grunts wear relatively heavy armor made from a thermal-resistant substance (same material used to create the larger Hierarchy walkers - can survive the forces of atmospheric reentry without compromising integrity) and are physically fairly tough (slightly less health than a light vehicle in their home game). They are described as being genetically modified to survive in virtually any environment, but they also appear to have other modifications compared to the baseline species (all species shown in-game share the same basic build with 3 digits per limb, but Grunts have sharpened claws and a more weathered, leathery skin). Lastly, all Hierarchy species regenerate while exposed to radiation, which the Hierarchy army as a whole exploits through heavy use of indiscriminate radiation weapons.

From a vs perspective, the Grunt's armor doesn't cover as much as the Space Marine's power armor (leaves limbs exposed) and they don't have the mechanically augmented strength. That being said, the base strength and, to a lesser extent, toughness of a Grunt probably exceeds a base Marine slightly, so I think they would still be fairly even in this regard (slight edge to Marine unless radiation is involved).

Offence:
The main weapon carried by a Grunt fires a burst of 5 plasma bolts in a cone pattern. The bolts themselves are fairly damaging and can travel a fair distance but the effective range for maximum damage is somewhat close due to the spread. The weapon can be upgraded so its plasma shots leave a radioactive residue on targets (Irradiated Shots) and/or use more powerful bolts that explode on impact (Quantum Ordnance). Grunts also tend to carry plasma grenades that are used to target structures and vehicles. The grenades don't detonate, but rather leave a burning cloud of plasma on impact. Once in melee range, Grunts use their primary weapon like a club to knock opponents back (usually followed up with a point-blank blast).

I think Grunts would have a slight edge with their weapon as the base version would probably compare to Pulse Blaster and the upgraded versions would edge towards imperial plasma. The main hurdle would be getting close enough to hit with more than 1-2 bolts without getting kitted to death (Grunts are somewhat slow moving, presumably due to the weight of their gun and armor).
   
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A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/21 18:45:49


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Astonished of Heck

 BlackoCatto wrote:
A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.

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 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.


Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
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Astonished of Heck

 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.


Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.

I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.

While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.


Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.

I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.

While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.


So a 100mm standard issue machine gun on a GM, not even a Gundam, a GM, isnt enough to kill a Space Marine. That is rubbish. As well a Gundam or Mobile Suit in general does have smaller prototypes. Furthermore Gundams are well armored, but the things that get shot at it typically are things meant to kill other Gundams and Mobile Suits anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/21 19:46:05


"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
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Astonished of Heck

 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.

Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.


Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.

I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.

While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.


So a 100mm standard issue machine gun on a GM, not even a Gundam, a GM, isnt enough to kill a Space Marine. That is rubbish. As well a Gundam or Mobile Suit in general does have smaller prototypes. Furthermore Gundams are well armored, but the things that get shot at it typically are things meant to kill other Gundams and Mobile Suits anyway.

Ah, you think when I said, "Trooper", I was speaking of a Mobile Suit like the Leo, Zaku, or GM? No, I meant the basic infantry trooper without a Mobile Suit, Mobile Armor, or tank. I thought that would be obvious when comparing Mobile Suits to Knights.

Also, "Small arms" is a term used by infantrymen in their regular work, like a Lasgun or Bolter. The 100mm and 120mm used by the Zaku and Leo would not be classified as "small arms".

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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Spank fest as typical

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/21 20:39:57


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
"My fictional sci-fi universe could totally beat up your fictional sci-fi universe!"


How long till we see Calgar vs ironman comics being official? If there's one thing the comic industry can't resist it's a crossover.
   
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You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?



You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/22 15:07:36


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Well if this thread has taught me anything it is that I am glad I am a Warhammer nerd and not a Star Wars nerd
   
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Upstate, New York

 Matt Swain wrote:
You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?

You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.


Just keep strolling while the stormtroopers continue to miss? All the gun in the world is not going to help with their accuracy.

   
 
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