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It was in a 1750 point game the guy had 4 PHQ, then maxed out each squad w/ 2 Commisars and 50 guys; I think each squad had two autocannons.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to defeat a model army of 200+.

What army are you planning to use?

I could see a massive anti-infantry taking it on, so stock up on template weapons and blast radius weapons then get a bunch of close combat dervishes with lot's of attacks at moderate WS and strength.

If I were to use an Eldar army I foresee a few squads of rangers for troop choice, a farseer council, some squads of striking scorpions in wave serpents, and some wraithlords with flamers and either a wraithsword or EML, possibly a fire prism or two as well.

So if im reading this right his total AT firepower is 8 BS 3 Autocannons?

You have plenty of options and its not a very strong army at all but what to use depends on your own faction.

Template weapons are your best bet of course, flamers, whirlwinds, prisms, hammerhead submunitions, simple charges with large cc units like ork boyz or nids.

He has very limited mobiltiy and the size of his units will make manever very difficlult for him.

Outflanking assault units are also gold as he has such a huge footprint it will be difficult for him to stay clear of a flank charge.

Flamers and blast ordnance. Lots of close combat attacks can really help. Drive a couple of Rhinos loaded with Berzerkers into his lines and see how he holds up.

My standard Mech Guard list would have little trouble with this. 6 chims with hull heavy flamers and mounted vets, an executioner with plasma sponsons, a demolisher with plasma sponsons a valkyrie with rocket pods.

A single land raider redeemer or squadron of Leman Russ battle tanks, Ork Scorchas in a Battlewagon the list goes on.

assuming marines: Stick your troops + HQ in Land Raiders to make them safe from most anything your opponent has, then charge the big platoons with ironclad dreadnoughts while maneuvering to objectives. Drop Pod the Ironclad if needed, or walk it behind the Land Raiders (running when able). Ironclad's immune to anything they can do in CC (other than a meltabomb) and Raiders are immune to most of his anti tank (assuming your post is accurate). If KP, force the draw. Eventually your opponent will want to win, and will change his list.

Then play conventional games when your buddy opts to stop sticking his units together.

KP wont be a problem, he has 4 PCS that are just easy meat. Cover saves wont help long for 5 T3 models.

Just slauther the PCS from range and then he has to somehow find a way to hurt you. 4 s7 hits a turn are not going to do much.

Any kind of raider spam is simply immune to this list.

I think if he fielded lascannons in all his command squad, it would be a really hard list to beat (this is what I have been trying to do).

Orders can be kind of nasty with commisars. I can kind of see a truly massed guard army being somewhat effective, not meta but good.

considering general game boards are 48"x72", he'd have to pack his guys in tight, so any large blast is solid.

massive numbers of CC attacks will wreck that list, as long as you don't get in/stay in range for their FRFSRF Rapid Fire, which can very well wipe out a small CC squad, depending on rolls. (2 RF + 1 FRFSRF * 50 = 150 * 4 = ALOT) so be sure to get in there, and if you end up wiping out an entire squad, and if he was smart with orders, all his squads would be merged, so that's unlikely. but better for you, since they get another turn to avoid the flashlight fireworks.

At 1750 I field a Crusader and a Redeemer. Even if he had Lascannons I would take those odds any day. Not to mention the Vindie, Ironclad in Deathwind DP, CC Termies w/ Vulkan, and 20 Tac Marines w/ 2 Razorbacks. Land Raiders up the gut and make him decide where the doom will fall.

Hollismason wrote:It was in a 1750 point game the guy had 4 PHQ, then maxed out each squad w/ 2 Commisars and 50 guys; I think each squad had two autocannons.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to defeat a model army of 200+.

Some lists won't be able to deal with this list at all. It sounds like your list is one of them. If it's any consolation, most lists will have little difficulty wiping this list off the table. Which should help discourage its use.

This, by the way, is another reason why encouraging "take all comers" lists makes for better games. Rock / Paper / Scissors isn't fun when it takes two hours to resolve a round.

Dark Eldar with terror fex and then just shoot them off the board

SM Telion sniping out you Commisars, Then take your pick of charging them or shooting them so they run away.

Eldar Striking Scorpions (dishing out 40 attacks on the charge against IG that about 12 wounds)

Chaos ... doesn't matter if they're daemon or SM almost every thing in these codex's with just chew through IG

Tau ... Will out shoot you

Necrons ... will out shoot you and hell they'd even stand a chance in CC just to stop you shooting then pull them out with a monolith

Orks ... HAHAHA moving on

IG will template you to death ... hell charge a unit of sentinels into CC since they can't lose CC (no wounds taken) they might even force you to run away... If not well who cares you're whole army can do nothing while they happily smash though your ranks.

A lot of things people say will kill this army will not do quite so well of the player in question has put meltabombs and power weapons on his Sergeants and/or Commissars. This is expensive, but I can't see running these huge squads without them, because with squads that big, you will get in combat.

Close range Land Raiders and walkers to tie up squads will be under serious threat to meltabomb attack. Any Raider within 12" (most of the board should be threatened in assault by 200 guys) will be under threat from meltabomb and massed frag grenade attacks.

Berserkers, Scorpions, etc. will kill them by the double handful, but will take appreciable casualties in return. If each sergeant and Commissar has a power weapon, that will be 21 PW attacks, 10 hits, 3 T4 or 5 T3 dead models a turn, plus whatever the non-PW attacks can do. If the army in question also has Straken (I would in this army), it makes the units even rougher in assault.

Massed flamers will do horrendous damage, but the fact is, they won't kill the dangerous parts of the squad, and there will be plenty left to kill the flamer unit on the following turn.

I don't quite remember what Terrorfex does, but if it won't get through Stubborn Ld 9 with a re-roll, it won't scare this army.

I'm not trying to pretend this is an unbeatable army, but I want to make clear that there are options in the new guard codex that give them a lot more close-range flexibility than they were previously, and the standard tactics do not apply.

In 1750, you probably can't fit in Power Weapons, Meltabombs, Straken, and extra heavy weapons in the platoon command squads, but some mix of these (most importantly meltabombs, I think) means these squads are much, much scarier to close assault armies than 50 "traditional" guardsmen.

2 Land Raider Redeemers.... burn baby burn.

Heck if you wanted to get fun you could use your land raiders to block LOS to small portions of their army from other and let out squads inside with flamers + combi flamers + librarian with flame like things....

meltabombs be damned. if an imperial guard actually manages to attach one to a Land Raider he is probably deserves a commendation. plus the likelyhood of this happening with good land raider positioning is unlikely.

This is the kinda reason why im taking 2x Eradictors. I know I wont often see such HUEG squads but when I do...

Terrorfex Range 12" S- Ap - Assault 1 Blast
If any models are hit they take a pinning test with the following modifiers to their Leadership
-1 if under half strength
-1 per model hit, if more then one model is hit.

And Stubborn only works against morale tests so LD9 quickly drops. Since you can't spread out (200 models leaves little room) thats likely to be a test at least a drop to LD6.

Melta bombs only hit on a 6 against walkers chances are 1 out of the 7 meltas will hit. Most likely it'll get through and then you've got to roll 5+ or you just knock a bit off. Also you're only hitting the front armour. Armoured Sentinels would be safe from every thing but your melta bombs

Finally in CC 21 power weapons will kill 5 SS or 3.5 Berserkers on average. You will still lose combat and if you run these guys will catch you.

Telion can kill the commisars really easily Then Assault & watch them run

Jpepper4451 wrote:At 1750 I field a Crusader and a Redeemer. Even if he had Lascannons I would take those odds any day. Not to mention the Vindie, Ironclad in Deathwind DP, CC Termies w/ Vulkan, and 20 Tac Marines w/ 2 Razorbacks. Land Raiders up the gut and make him decide where the doom will fall.

I love the way you think.

Tri wrote:Terrorfex Range 12" S- Ap - Assault 1 Blast
If any models are hit they take a pinning test with the following modifiers to their Leadership
-1 if under half strength
-1 per model hit, if more then one model is hit.

And Stubborn only works against morale tests so LD9 quickly drops. Since you can't spread out (200 models leaves little room) thats likely to be a test at least a drop to LD6.

Melta bombs only hit on a 6 against walkers chances are 1 out of the 7 meltas will hit. Most likely it'll get through and then you've got to roll 5+ or you just knock a bit off. Also you're only hitting the front armour. Armoured Sentinels would be safe from every thing but your melta bombs

Finally in CC 21 power weapons will kill 5 SS or 3.5 Berserkers on average. You will still lose combat and if you run these guys will catch you.

Thanks for the info. It looks like Terrorfex will be a problem. Telion may also be a problem, but I can't remember his rules (don't play marines). The Guard player will have to rely on successful "Get Back in the Fight" orders to keep working. You are correct that the squads will take their time killing the walkers, but frankly, that's okay, because the walker can't hope to kill enough Guardsmen to matter. If both a walker and good CC troops charge the squad, the sergeants/Commissars go after the CC troops with their power weapons and just let the walker munch a couple guys a turn.

Land Raider Crusader at close range: 12 twin-linked bolter shots kills ~8 Guardsmen in the open, throw in another 3 from the Assault cannon and call it 11 dead. This means if the Crusader fires all game at Guardsmen in the open who do nothing to prevent it, the Crusader will kill a little bit more than its points worth. This is not impressive, as it won't get a full game of firing due to moving into position, and won't always be within 12" range.

Assault Terminators (Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield): 6 Charge the Guard Squad
21 power weapon attacks, 10 hit, 3 wound, 1 failed 3++ save. Ignore other Guardsmen for now.
15 Thunder Hammer Attacks, 10 hit, 9 dead Guardsmen.
The Guard Squad passes a L9 check, rerollable. This was the best round of combat the Terminators had, it just gets worse in subsequent rounds.

Land Raider Redeemer: 2 Flamer Templates, which cannot possibly get full coverage because of their vehicle sponson mounting, will not possibly kill enough Guardsmen to matter. Say the Guard player is playing badly and lets you get 12 kills. The Guard player now gets to take 7 chances at slapping a meltabomb on the Redeemer. It won't work every time, but it's worthwhile. The Redeemer is probably carrying assault troops that can prevent a meltabomb counter-charge. See the previous paragraph.


There are plenty of units in the game this army is vulnerable to. Here's a list:

Griffon Mortars
Thunderfire Cannons
Whirlwinds
(Any other artillery)
Hellhounds
Large Boyz Mobs (potentially, it depends on if there's enough terrain for the Boyz to avoid the withering lasgun barrage that will issue from this army)
Mass Templates (2 is not enough, you'll need 4+)
Mass Close Combat Troops (Scorpions Berserkers, other lawnmower style CC troops): You'll need 1 plus per 50 man squad of Guardsmen.

Notice that super-elite CC troops and most flamer weapons are not on this list.

Biophysic wrote:Land Raider Crusader at close range: 12 twin-linked bolter shots kills ~8 Guardsmen in the open, throw in another 3 from the Assault cannon and call it 11 dead. This means if the Crusader fires all game at Guardsmen in the open who do nothing to prevent it, the Crusader will kill a little bit more than its points worth. This is not impressive, as it won't get a full game of firing due to moving into position, and won't always be within 12" range.

Assault Terminators (Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield): 6 Charge the Guard Squad
21 power weapon attacks, 10 hit, 3 wound, 1 failed 3++ save. Ignore other Guardsmen for now.
15 Thunder Hammer Attacks, 10 hit, 9 dead Guardsmen.
The Guard Squad passes a L9 check, rerollable. This was the best round of combat the Terminators had, it just gets worse in subsequent rounds.

Land Raider Redeemer: 2 Flamer Templates, which cannot possibly get full coverage because of their vehicle sponson mounting, will not possibly kill enough Guardsmen to matter. Say the Guard player is playing badly and lets you get 12 kills. The Guard player now gets to take 7 chances at slapping a meltabomb on the Redeemer. It won't work every time, but it's worthwhile. The Redeemer is probably carrying assault troops that can prevent a meltabomb counter-charge. See the previous paragraph.

You can't really look at it on a unit-by-unit basis, though. Think about it as a combination of the LR and its delicious candy inside.

Orks: A 45 Loota list will absolutely own that list, as will BW spam.

Necrons: Double or triple Mono lists will own that list...especially DSing form reserves.

Eldar: Mechdar will crush that list with fast skimmers (WS and Prisms) and firepower (3x Prisms will eat that list alive), not to mention the units inside the WSs.

SMs: Double or Triple LR lists will tear that list up, because that list can't hurt them... unless those platoons break cover to try to assault the LRs with Bombs..then the SMs hop out and own them.

Chaos: LOL...Double Lash (especially Sorcerers in squads) will eat a list liek that for breakfast. Bunch them up, pull them out of cover, and kill them.

Nids:Stealer shock backed by MCs..wow..that is alot of dead 'umies, fast.

Any Army: Go mech and kill this list easily.

The fact that this list has no vehicles, no REAL cc, no ranged weapons over S7, no mobility, and no ranged cover-ignoring weapons makes this list one of the worst IG lists I have seen out of the new dex...

seriously...was this a joke?

KaloranSLC wrote:

Biophysic wrote:Land Raider Crusader at close range: 12 twin-linked bolter shots kills ~8 Guardsmen in the open, throw in another 3 from the Assault cannon and call it 11 dead. This means if the Crusader fires all game at Guardsmen in the open who do nothing to prevent it, the Crusader will kill a little bit more than its points worth. This is not impressive, as it won't get a full game of firing due to moving into position, and won't always be within 12" range.

Assault Terminators (Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield): 6 Charge the Guard Squad
21 power weapon attacks, 10 hit, 3 wound, 1 failed 3++ save. Ignore other Guardsmen for now.
15 Thunder Hammer Attacks, 10 hit, 9 dead Guardsmen.
The Guard Squad passes a L9 check, rerollable. This was the best round of combat the Terminators had, it just gets worse in subsequent rounds.

Land Raider Redeemer: 2 Flamer Templates, which cannot possibly get full coverage because of their vehicle sponson mounting, will not possibly kill enough Guardsmen to matter. Say the Guard player is playing badly and lets you get 12 kills. The Guard player now gets to take 7 chances at slapping a meltabomb on the Redeemer. It won't work every time, but it's worthwhile. The Redeemer is probably carrying assault troops that can prevent a meltabomb counter-charge. See the previous paragraph.

You can't really look at it on a unit-by-unit basis, though. Think about it as a combination of the LR and its delicious candy inside.

You actually said this, while quoting my math showing how 6 assault terminators weren't a problem.


@Alerian: I think you're right about problem units for the most part, but I think you might be harder on this list than is merited. It's 1750, and we don't know everything that's in it. We know that there's 4 platoon command squads, 4 giant blob squads, and 8 autocannons in there. There are sufficient points to make up for some of the weaknesses you describe. I maintain that Land Raiders aren't a problem, however. If platoons are PW equipped, SM assault troops just won't be killy enough to get the job done, and Land Raiders can't do the shooting damage, either.

Uhm...Nob Bikerz? Lash Chaos with Berzerkers? Demons with Bloodcrushers? With only infantry and minimal heavy weapons, a quick multi-assault with dedicated CC troops should blow up this whole army from combat resolution.

Or, 3x Land Raiders full of Berzerkers or 3x Crusaders full of Black Templars.

EDIT:

We aren't talking about conscripts, but stubborn...I still think this idea has merit actually, because if you multi-charge, you shouldn't be able to kill everything out of one squad in one turn, leaving you in assault for the enemy's turn to avoid getting flashlit to death. You should be able to break out in their turn to assault again in your turn.

simple.

i take 6 units of 30 boyz, all with klaw nobz.

throw in ghaz for his waaagh! move.

take a KFF mek to keep some of da boyz in cover.

by turn 2 you get dragged into combat.

by turn 4 your screwed.

JD21290 wrote:simple.

i take 6 units of 30 boyz, all with klaw nobz.

throw in ghaz for his waaagh! move.

take a KFF mek to keep some of da boyz in cover.

by turn 2 you get dragged into combat.

by turn 4 your screwed.

Sorry but with orks all you need to say is your taking 1750pts worth of orks against IG with no real ranged weapons and i think no matter how bad the list its going to win