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The Issue and problem
Well, I was involved in a tourny a couple of weeks ago and there was a LOS question which I need the forums help in answering. My Chaos Space Marines were fighting an Ork army and the center of the board was a mass of bodies doing the dance of death. In the Ork shooting phase, the Ork player declared that he was going to shoot his Trukk's big shoota (the new GW Ork Trukk non-converted) over the close combat at a squad of Marines which were holding an objective waiting for the perfect time to charge into combat. Per the 5th Ed LOS rules states that if the gun barrel can see the target then the vehicle can shoot. However, I thought that no unit friend nor foe could shoot through over over close combat unless they had the ablility to shoot indirectly i.e. an earthshaker cannon, ect.

The player stated that as per page 21 (AoBR mini-rule book) the section When are models in Cover? "Fires may of course shoot over intervening terrain if they are tall enought or high up on some piece so that their line of sight is completely clear." I stated that I did not agree with his reading of the rules but on a 4+ I would allow it for the game as not to slow down the game. I rolled and it came up a 5 so he shot and only 1 hit with no wounds. The game ended the next turn so the issue did not come up again.

Question One
Was the Ork player correct in his reading of the rules? Can a unit (Infantry, Artillery, Vehicle, ect...) direct fire over close combat at another unit as long as you have an unblocked LOS and range to one model on the enemy unit or does the close combat go up forever blocking all LOS?

Question Two
Again if the Ork player was correct then does close combat offer a 4+ cover save or obscure a vehicle since the models will block a portion of the unit or vehicle from LOS.

My view on the issue
I do not agree with the Ork player's reading of the rules but if he is correct what will stop some one from modeling a Leman Russ with a battle cannon mounted five inches above the vehicle's hull so they can fire on anything on the board? This kind of goes back to the crawling Avatar model issue. While he used a non-converted GW model so the LOS was not in question, firing over the combat seems to be flying in the face of the rules even though the issue is not adressed anywhere in the main rule book or in a Errata or FAQ.

What is your take on this issue?

Pipboy101 wrote:

Question One
Was the Ork player correct in his reading of the rules? Can a unit (Infantry, Artillery, Vehicle, ect...) direct fire over close combat at another unit as long as you have an unblocked LOS and range to one model on the enemy unit or does the close combat go up forever blocking all LOS?

He was correct. If you can see it, you can shoot it.

Pipboy101 wrote:

Question Two
Again if the Ork player was correct then does close combat offer a 4+ cover save or obscure a vehicle since the models will block a portion of the unit or vehicle from LOS.

Just follow the rules for cover in the BGB.

Pipboy101 wrote:
........ firing over the combat seems to be flying in the face of the rules even though the issue is not adressed anywhere in the main rule book or in a Errata or FAQ.

So what you're saying is that firing over the combat flies in the face of what YOU think the rules SHOULD be, not how they ARE. The fact of the matter is, the TLOS rules are very simple, and straight forward.

Question 1; I agree with the Ork player.

Question 2; The close combat might confer a coversave to units fired at behind the close combat. Use the normal rules to determine if that is the case (eligible part of targeted model obscured/50% of armour facing obscured).

Concerning your view on the matter; where have you been?
Modeling for advantage have been a possibility for several editions. And as you also pointed out, he used a standard unmodified Trukk.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Concerning your view on the matter; where have you been?
Modeling for advantage have been a possibility for EVERY SINGLE edition. And as you also pointed out, he used a standard unmodified Trukk.

Fixed your quote there to make it correct!


Modeling to gain an in-game advantage? That's CRAZY talk (see my sig).

But remember (I'm quoting myself here now):

There is nothing in the rules about being able to convert your models. By the RAW we should all be using stock GW miniatures for the game. It is only through the social contract of gamers that we all allow converted models to be used so under that same social contract you shouldn't be shocked when your opponents refuse to play with you when they feel you've abused that unspoken contract in order to gain an in-game advantage.

Here is a question: If I was firing a battle cannon at a unit behind a close combat and all I can see is a helmet through the combat then that unit will get a 4+ cover save then?

If this is true then it is on since there is nothing from stopping me from have units behind CC and keeping a on trooper off to the side so the unit will have LOS and still get a cover save from return fire. No wasted railgun or lascannon shots anymore if the rule is correct.

This trully changes the way the game is played.

Pipboy101 wrote:Here is a question: If I was firing a battle cannon at a unit behind a close combat and all I can see is a helmet through the combat then that unit will get a 4+ cover save then?

If this is true then it is on since then nothing will stop me from have units behind CC and keeping a on trooper off to the side so the unit will have LOS and still get a cover save from return fire.

For non-vehicle models, you have to be able to see the "body" of a model to fire at it. A body is defined as the head, legs, arms and torso. It depends on the design of the helmet, but usually that is considered the 'head' of the model and therefore allows you draw LOS to the model (although this is something that you need to come to an agreement about between you and your opponent).

But yes, if the combat blocks any part of the target model to at least half of the models in the target unit then the unit will get a 4+ cover save. This is true regardless of whether the intervening models are locked in combat or are just friendly or enemy models. If you are firing THROUGH units then your targets are going to get a 4+ cover save for the most part.


I'm not sure exactly what advantage you're hoping to gain by keeping one model off to the side of combat. . .perhaps you can explain more? Edit: I think I understand what you're getting at. Yes, you can keep most of your unit behind cover and then have one model off to the side getting a clear shot, but this only works if the ONLY model you shoot with in your unit is the one with the clear LOS. If you shoot with any of the models that have their vision partially obscured then the defending unit is going to get cover.

Of course, if you're talking about firing back at a vehicle you need to remember that vehicles (and monstrous creatures) ONLY ever get a cover save if at least 50% of the arc you're firing at (or the model in the case of a MC) is physically obscured.


I really HIGHLY suggest you take a detailed read of the rules for cover saves on pages 21-23 of the rulebook. It should answer a lot of these questions for you.

The reason I stated that I would keep one off to the side is because if I keep the unit the minium distance away from the combat this will keep the unit out of LOS from many directions but still allow me to get shots off from the LOS of the guy off to the side.

Pipboy101 wrote:The reason I stated that I would keep one off to the side is because if I keep the unit the minium distance away from the combat this will keep the unit out of LOS from many directions but still allow me to get shots off from the LOS of the guy off to the side.

Well, you draw LOS from every model firing in the shooting unit, so keeping one model off to the side only means one model in your firing unit has a clear shot to the enemy. If most of the models in your shooting unit have their vision blocked then the enemy is getting a cover save.