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Ok, appreciate some of you hard core grognards confirming for me that I'm interpreting the rules for Al Rahem and Chenkov correctly:

If I include Al Rahem in my army I could concieviably have a platoon consisting of over 140 Guardsman & six chimeras that Out flanks - Right? ie the platoon could be maxed out with 1 Hq sqd, (plus chimera) 5 Inf squads (plus chimeras), 5 HW squads, 2 Spec Wep squads, and 1 Conscript squad (containg up to 50 guys). Aside from commisars are there any other ways that you can think of to make Al Rahem's platoon even larger?

Then if I add Chenkov to this army his rules say that conscripts in "an army" containing him may have his Next Wave rule bought for them. So I could buy this for Al Rahem's conscripts and essentially have the conscripts regenerate in the enemy's backfield , because everone in Al Rahem's platoon must out flank - right?

And finally we all know you can not assault after you rapid fire, however if you use the command: First rank FIRE!... you could assault after your guys just fired 3 shots each because that is not "Rapid Fire" (?) it is instead a special rule - yes??

Please chime in with what you think. Thanks.

Q1, Al Rahem: Yes
Q2, CHenkov: Yes
Q3, FRF! + Assault: No

I agree with The Green Git except for one nitpick:

You could indeed grant Al'Rahem's conscripts the "send in the next wave" (as Chenkov unlocks this ability army wide) but when the next wave came in it is specified that it enters from your board edge.

EDIT: wait read it again, now I am less sure, as it also says the unit is "treated as if it just arrived from reserve", so I'm gonna say RAW the come from your board edge, but it might be worth asking on the FAQ, in case RAI is different.

Jack

agree with green 100%

and if you get outflank isnt it random board edge for reserves ?? not too sure on this please correct me if im out on this .

Chenkov's rule:

"the new unit moves onto the board from the player's board edge."

"it is treated as a new, identical unit that has just arrived from reserve."

Al'Rahem's rule:

"Any unit that is part of Al'rahem's Infantry Platoon must outflank."

Outflank p.94 BRB:
"When outflanking unit arrives from reserve the contrlling player rolls a dice:... models move onto the table as described for other reserves, above."


There is clearly a contradiction in the RAW.

Outflanking lets you come in on the side of the board, but Chenkov's rule states that you come in on the *player's board edge*.

However, it also states that the unit acts like it was coming in from reserve, which would mean that it *must* outflank.

You can not satisfy both rules with out breaking one.

A FAQ is needed, but personally I would play it that the new unit comes in on the players board edge (since it is Chenkov's rule that is allowing the unit to come in play).

BoxANT wrote:There is clearly a contradiction in the RAW.

Outflanking lets you come in on the side of the board, but Chenkov's rule states that you come in on the *player's board edge*.

However, it also states that the unit acts like it was coming in from reserve, which would mean that it *must* outflank.

You can not satisfy both rules with out breaking one.

A FAQ is needed, but personally I would play it that the new unit comes in on the players board edge (since it is Chenkov's rule that is allowing the unit to come in play).

On re-reading the rules, I'm thinking you are right. It does say as if coming in from Reserve but then explicitly says "Players board edge".

I too would play this as the Conscript second and subsequent waves come in from the players board edge, not outflanking.

BoxANT wrote:
You can not satisfy both rules with out breaking one.

In response to this line of thinking... Id say you should simply have to pick one option. If both are mandatory then both are viable allowed options. If a unit has to do one thing, it makes no difference (from a ruling standard point) which thing a unit obeys. I could be wrong, though.

FRFSRF & 'Like the wind' order. No, rapid fire prohibitis assaults.

Assault flamers/GL's or/and pistol weaponary & 'Like the wind' basically gives the unit fleet.

Its described as movement, not a 'run action' & using assault weapons does not prohibit an assault.

Clear as mud huh? I can just here my rules lawyer buddy arguing the deployment local of the regenerated conscript unit with me. I guess I could shut him up by saying "..fine you want me to comply with both rules, then I'll put a conscript unit on my table edge AND I'll outflank with a differant conscript unit...double the goodies allows my to comply with both rules"--Just kidding I would not do such a thing. I guess I'll probabbly just avoid this combo in order to keep things simple. Thanks GW!!!!

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:And finally we all know you can not assault after you rapid fire, however if you use the command: First rank FIRE!... you could assault after your guys just fired 3 shots each because that is not "Rapid Fire" (?) it is instead a special rule - yes??

There is no such thing as 'rapid firing'. You fire a Rapid Fire weapon and the rules then tell you how many shots you get dependent on your movement, range to the enemy, etc. Regardless, the rules say that if you fired a rapid fire weapon then you may not assault. How it was fired is inconsequential.

Razerous wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
You can not satisfy both rules with out breaking one.

In response to this line of thinking... Id say you should simply have to pick one option. If both are mandatory then both are viable allowed options. If a unit has to do one thing, it makes no difference (from a ruling standard point) which thing a unit obeys. I could be wrong, though.

Being "forced" to outflank, and being forced to come on the players edge.

If I was playing someone who tried to outflank with a 2nd wave conscript squad, I would call foul. It is Chenkov's rule that is allowing the unit to come back and his rule states that the unit enters the player's edge. IMO you don't get to ignore it in favor of outflanking.

BoxANT wrote:Chenkov's rule:

"the new unit moves onto the board from the player's board edge."

"it is treated as a new, identical unit that has just arrived from reserve."

Al'Rahem's rule:

"Any unit that is part of Al'rahem's Infantry Platoon must outflank."

Outflank p.94 BRB:
"When outflanking unit arrives from reserve the contrlling player rolls a dice:... models move onto the table as described for other reserves, above."


There is clearly a contradiction in the RAW.

Outflanking lets you come in on the side of the board, but Chenkov's rule states that you come in on the *player's board edge*.

However, it also states that the unit acts like it was coming in from reserve, which would mean that it *must* outflank.

You can not satisfy both rules with out breaking one.

A FAQ is needed, but personally I would play it that the new unit comes in on the players board edge (since it is Chenkov's rule that is allowing the unit to come in play).

A FAQ is not needed on this question IMHO (unless a bunch of people keep asking about it, of course).

When you quoted the Outflank rules you ignored the first part of it: That during a deployment a unit can be declared to be outflanking. Those conditions are not met by the unit returning to play (it is not deployment and therefore the player cannot declare that the unit is arriving using the outflank rules).

Therefore the unit arriving back on the table is not allowed to Outflank.

Hmmm. I have to say I think Yakface brings up a data point that was not really considered, and I'd probably go with that logic.

Initially when I started this topic I was toying with an all-outflanking IG army. I had planned on Al Rahem and Chenkov joining somve valks, astropaths etc. But now the more I think about it, the more I have to wonder if I would even want the regenerated conscripts coming in via out flank. I mean if you play your cards right (dependant on the scenario) there is a fair chance that you might actually want them showing up on your edge in order to camp on an objective towards then end of the game--and 50 conscripts going to ground could camp out pretty well IMHO.

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Hmmm. I have to say I think Yakface brings up a data point that was not really considered, and I'd probably go with that logic.

Initially when I started this topic I was toying with an all-outflanking IG army. I had planned on Al Rahem and Chenkov joining somve valks, astropaths etc. But now the more I think about it, the more I have to wonder if I would even want the regenerated conscripts coming in via out flank. I mean if you play your cards right (dependant on the scenario) there is a fair chance that you might actually want them showing up on your edge in order to camp on an objective towards then end of the game--and 50 conscripts going to ground could camp out pretty well IMHO.

Not to mention that once you outflank the whole army your opponent will have to reorient to engage them. Once that happens coming on from your board edge could still be effectively outflanking your opponent's reoriented positions.

because it specifically states "the player's board edge" in his rules imo you should follow Chenkov's

Add Creed and some fast attack and veterans...your new deployment zone is pretty much whatever side you want.