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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Ok so Im started to get a tad irritated, and I think Im in the right. Ill explain my side and I want dakkas opinion on the matter.
I play Orks (surprise!) and Im a strickly CC oriented Ork player. I dont spam with shootas/lootas and only occasionally Ive been known to field nobz on bikes. Lets face it, they do pack a punch. My problem is, with my brother with whom I play the majority of games against.
Now hes played SM since the beginning of his life in this hobby, since around 94-ish. I know for a fact that his win ratio FAR outweighs his loss. He is a very smart player, and you can tell in the way he plays that he is very good with SM.
NOW the problem is, lately our games have been REALLY close. Today we played, I won but only had a trukk and half a squad of ard boyz left. Last time he beat me but had only a small hand full of marines left. The problem is, after every game lately he whines and complains about how "impossible" it is to beat Orks. Then gets out the calculator and starts adding up numbers of scenarios and all that, ust to PROVE that its impossible.
"Orks are to damn cheap, I cant field remotely enough to SM to get enough lead in the air blah blah blah" Yet everytime we play its a close game. I love playing this game and I enjoy playing against my brother, but dammit its getting on my nerves that after these games I get to enjoy a bitch-fest about why he didnt win by a huge margin.
What do you folks think, and how do you think I should go about this whole deal? And yes shooting him IS an option
   
Made in us
Dominar






Tell your brother to run flamer tac squads in rhinos. You'll have a miserable time cracking him out of armor and he can flame you from the fire points.

Likewise the Land Raider Redeemer hoses Orks hard. It's Lolerific.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Hmm I dont think he EVER thought of the flamer rhino idea. He did just buy a redeemer, and Ive been eagerly waiting to see it fry some boyz (how twisted am I?)
Rhinos are easy for me to bust open. But Ill still tell him about that. He always tries using heavy bolters and the like to hammer on me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/19 02:33:21


 
   
Made in us
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






Personally, it sounds to me like he is too set in his ways. He's been playing the same Marines for nearly 15 years and he's become singularly focused with them.

Since '94, there have been two and-a-half rules re-writes. 2nd ed. to 3rd ed. being the biggest changes. There have been what? Three codexes since '94? Untill this new Codex, the Marines haven't changed much in 15+ years. Even this new Codex isn't as huge a swing from the last as is the new IG or Orks.

I think he has been playing his certain Marines in a certain way against a certain opponent for SOOOOO long, he lost his tactical flexibility. Rather than owning the loss of focus and the narrowing of tactical sense, he wants to take the easy way out (like SO many others) and blame the new Ork Codex.

Of course, I know absolutely nothing about you or your brother so, take that with a grain of salt. Just my sneaking hunch from the outside looking in.



Ghidorah

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/19 07:29:39


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

KingCracker wrote:Last time he beat me but had only a small hand full of marines left.

The problem is, after every game lately he whines and complains about how "impossible" it is to beat Orks. Then gets out the calculator and starts adding up numbers of scenarios and all that, ust to PROVE that its impossible.

And yet he actually did the "impossible"?

Meh.

I say not to worry about. When you start stomping him on a regular basis, then he'll have a legitimate basis for complaint.

   
Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




Pleasant Hill CA 94523

He just needs to flame more and focus fire. How has he been using combat tactics and such things from the new dex?


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Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Huge Hierodule






North Bay, CA

Try switching armies with him every now and then

   
Made in us
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms






Chino Hills, CA

flamers. Lots of flamers.

Or more vehicles.

though, I have a neighbor who does the exact same thing (go see Awkward Moments Thread)

Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Cant say enough about the love for the Land Raider Redeemer

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Ghidorah wrote:Personally, it sounds to me like he is too set in his ways. He's been playing the same Marines for nearly 15 years and he's become singularly focused with them.

Since '94, there have been two and-a-half rules re-writes. 4th ed to 5th ed. being the biggest changes. There have been what? Three codexes since '94? Untill this new Codex, the Marines haven't changed much in 15+ years. Even this new Codex isn't as huge a swing from the last as is the new IG or Orks.

I think he has been playing his certain Marines in a certain way against a certain opponent for SOOOOO long, he lost his tactical flexibility. Rather than owning the loss of focus and the narrowing of tactical sense, he wants to take the easy way out (like SO many others) and blame the new Ork Codex.

Ghidorah
quote edited to get to the bit I needed

This is why I have more than one army. I play with one for a while, then rest it, and play with another that requires a different play style. Keeps me on my toes. Can't get tide-locked into one way of thinking. Mmm, not quite too-old and fogey-set in my thinking, am I.

So he uses mathhammer to state that orks are unbeatable, then almost beats them (not his fault, 5th ed missions are more structured towards draws).
More flamers. Take HBs as well, but in non-kp missions, combat squad the flamer into one squad and give them the transport (if they have one) and sit the others back and pepper from 24". The flamer demi-squad can run up, flame them and shoot with pistols and charge if in range.

If you are inside his charge range (shooting phase) and take shooting casualties, choose to fall back and regroup (as per ATSKNF) out of assault range (if you can), then dakka them to death in your shooting phase.

I'm 50.
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







Ghidorah wrote:Since '94, there have been two and-a-half rules re-writes. 4th ed to 5th ed. being the biggest changes.

Surely the leap from 2nd to 3rd edition in 1998 was much more significant than last year's minor rulebook update?

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in us
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






Would you believe that that is what I meant to say? I had several different ideas going on in different parts of the text field and I cropped everything here and there. Must have confused myself along the way. Good catch. Thanks.

/Edited...



Ghidorah

   
Made in ca
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





Inactive


Just play deathmatch , down to the last one alive.
( no idea if thats beneficial or not for this situation )

But that seem to be a good idea for people thats arguing over certain missions.

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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)

Maybe he needs to change his list?

tac squads with flamer / heavy bolters should work wonders.
vindi's also work great.
redeemers? they are allways a nice option.
even assault cannon / Heavy bolter speeders work well.


or he can throw vulkan into his list and go pyro crazy.

Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor.  
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





London

Can't he invest in stuff that hits masses of targets? Assault cannons, heavy bolters, flamers and the like. Don't bother with lascannons or any single shot heavy weapons.
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest





Somewhere.

Whirlwinds and Vindicators are friends to anyone who fights Orks.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Howard A Treesong wrote:Can't he invest in stuff that hits masses of targets? Assault cannons, heavy bolters, flamers and the like. Don't bother with lascannons or any single shot heavy weapons.



No his fire power is deffinetly NOT a problem. He literally has more then an entire company of marines. Tanks of all flavours, hes really got it all. I think Ghidorah actually might of hit the nail on the head. He has all the stuff people keep saying he needs to try, BUT he keeps using the SAME type of write ups he had when I played SM. And seriously using SM against him was the main reason I stopped playing SM, he is just to friggin good with SM lol.

Also I keep trying to convince him to make a Vulcan counts as, but he has a real problem with hating to field special characters. I see his point. He can make a better more killy squad that can last longer, then take one special character.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

BTW thanks for the thoughts everyone! I figured you folks would get the problem solved for me
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






Remind him that a good game with even points should be really close and come down to a final couple units.

Also remind him you are here to have fun and him winning by a large margin every game would NOT be fun.

All else fails, tell him to suck it up and play better. If it is "impossible" to beat Orks, how did he just do it?

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





There's two problems:
1) You have a very small gaming group.
2) Everyone only plays one army.

As a result, you know that every match is Marines vs. Orks.

Personally, I'd recommend you set up some sort of campaign, with unique missions. Even unbalanced missions. Maybe it's a half-company of marines (Captain, 3 tac, 1 assault, 1 dev) vs. twice as many points of orks in a desperate last stand. Marines are in cover, and get like 12 inches of open board in front of their barricades. The marines are going to lose, but if they hold out long enough, they get a bonus next mission (maybe if they hold out past Turn 4 or 5, you get -1 to reserves in the next mission, or can't Outflank, etc.).

Or, play Cities of Death or Apocalypse. Even play a campagin for one of those.

I think the problem is that you've both gotten into a rut and need something to get out of it.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

we do have a small group, but its not JUST us. I simply said we play one another more then the others. And we do make up campaigns and the like. He does this after EVERY game. Like I said, its even when he WINS!
   
Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




Ann Arbor, MI

There is no winner here.

It seems like all you do is play each other. That gets boring. Granted if any of you play other players that field those armies and you go against them you have a well established hold on how their army works. You need to switch it up a bit. Use each others armies. If he says that Orks are cheap let him use them... He'll most likely lose the first couple. Well, that is going off of you doing well...

-J.

KingCracker wrote:we do have a small group, but its not JUST us. I simply said we play one another more then the others. And we do make up campaigns and the like. He does this after EVERY game. Like I said, its even when he WINS!


P.s. Your brother is a rules-Nazi in the making, if he isn't already. Play the game for fun. It's a hobby, not a job.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/19 17:05:05


In Vino Veritas. ("In wine there is truth.")

"If a man dedicates his life to good deeds and the welfare of others, he will die unthanked and unremembered. If he exercises his genius bringing misery and death to billions, his name will echo down through the millennia for a hundred lifetimes. Infamy is always more preferable to ignominy." -Fabius Bile



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





KingCracker wrote:we do have a small group, but its not JUST us. I simply said we play one another more then the others. And we do make up campaigns and the like. He does this after EVERY game. Like I said, its even when he WINS!

Maybe your brother is just TFG. And he apparently doesn't realize it. I'd start complaining back, evne more when he wins. "Oh, the Whirlwind is sooooo unstoppable. Multi-meltas are sooooo cheesy. You should field nothing but tac marines with missile launchers and flamers, and just stand around waiting for me to assault you."

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

I have to give a big thanks to Ghidorah who seemed to get this more then anyone else on here. I ended up talking to him about it this morning and pretty much word for word told him what you said. He ended up apologizing about the whole thing, and then realized that he has been using strait Sm on SM tactics and not really realized it.
THANKS GHIDORAH!
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






KingCracker wrote:Ok so Im started to get a tad irritated, and I think Im in the right. Ill explain my side and I want dakkas opinion on the matter.
I play Orks (surprise!) and Im a strickly CC oriented Ork player. I dont spam with shootas/lootas and only occasionally Ive been known to field nobz on bikes. Lets face it, they do pack a punch. My problem is, with my brother with whom I play the majority of games against.
Now hes played SM since the beginning of his life in this hobby, since around 94-ish. I know for a fact that his win ratio FAR outweighs his loss. He is a very smart player, and you can tell in the way he plays that he is very good with SM.
NOW the problem is, lately our games have been REALLY close. Today we played, I won but only had a trukk and half a squad of ard boyz left. Last time he beat me but had only a small hand full of marines left. The problem is, after every game lately he whines and complains about how "impossible" it is to beat Orks. Then gets out the calculator and starts adding up numbers of scenarios and all that, ust to PROVE that its impossible.
"Orks are to damn cheap, I cant field remotely enough to SM to get enough lead in the air blah blah blah" Yet everytime we play its a close game. I love playing this game and I enjoy playing against my brother, but dammit its getting on my nerves that after these games I get to enjoy a bitch-fest about why he didnt win by a huge margin.
What do you folks think, and how do you think I should go about this whole deal? And yes shooting him IS an option


I LOL'd this post.

Get yourself a few of those Gale Force 9 cheese and whine markers and start dropping them on his units when he starts the Waambulance siren.

The poor thing needs to take it like a man and redress his thought process. Its all about the templates. The more, the better.

Tell him to suck it up and drive on. The fact that you are having tight games is a good indication that you both are doing well, and you and he might try trading armies once in awile. Let him play orks and you play the marines, and let him see for himself how they play. He is making excuses, and he doesn't know anything until he's been laid to waste by the IG or Tyranid hordes, yet. From what I am reading, you can ask him if he's ever gotten the feeling that he's been cheated, just tossing around with marines the whole time.

Tell him to have a nice hot cup of !@#$ and have a nice day.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/20 04:17:11




At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

If I may be so bold (as I also play Orks against my SM brother more often than anyone else, no joke) I think it's because he's your brother and has a problem losing against you. Just my opinion.

 
   
Made in us
Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot






You extra-posting people need to stop. At the very least, read the post(s) above you.


I ALREADY WON THE THREAD!


KingCracker wrote:I have to give a big thanks to Ghidorah who seemed to get this more then anyone else on here. I ended up talking to him about it this morning and pretty much word for word told him what you said. He ended up apologizing about the whole thing, and then realized that he has been using strait Sm on SM tactics and not really realized it.
THANKS GHIDORAH!


Just call it like I see it, sir.

Whether any of us were right or wrong, though, the important thing is that you guys talked about it and got it straightened out. Nobody likes to play this game when it isn't fun. Also important is that you, as family, worked it out. Assure your brother, too. Make sure he realizes that he is FAR from being the only person that calls out the Ork Codex as being too strong. People are prone to laying blame on anything other than their own shoulders. Personally, I think it's about damned time the Orks got some muscle in their rules. They've been so weak for so long...

Here's to you guys having fun again!



Ghidorah

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

Ghidorah wrote:You extra-posting people need to stop. At the very least, read the post(s) above you.


I ALREADY WON THE THREAD!

Ghidorah...


Meow!

Just knowing how me and my brothers are, I still say it's a little bit of what I said.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/20 14:34:48


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I play for the sheer fun of it. Win or lose, the highlight moments make it fun. I have a SM army that is close combat heavy. Sure I could make it shooty and unbeatable, I could be a cheesebot. But my armies are created for fun, what I like. So I expect to loose more then win.

But when my lone marine lasts 3 full turns locked in a toe-to-toe punchfest with a Khorne Bloodthirster, and survives until the end of the game, it is a priceless gaming moment.

I say, play with those that have the same mind set as you. Your bro needs to either change armies or tactics. Or learn from his past gaming moments with you, and adjust his own tactics. Make it a learning experience.

IMHO.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

krazynadechukr2 wrote: Sure I could make it shooty and unbeatable. . .


Really?
Unbeatable?

You should. And post that list!

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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