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I've recently picked up a marine army in a trade. Most of the tactical squads are built out flamer/missile but I really haven't been impressed with the performance of them. I'm looking at other heavy weapon options for them since I'm trying to keep them mainly foot aside from a crusader for the terminators. I know the prevailing thought seems to be multimeltas in them but I'm not convinced it's really better than a lascannon in a tactical squad. Multimeltas seem to be better on speedy platforms like speeders and attack bikes since if you're in range for the melta bonus, you're in charge range. Even then, if you're not in range for the bonus, you may still be in charge range. The range of the lascannon also seems to me to buy off the bonus of the +1 to pen for the multimelta since you should get more shots at range before you get into face-beating range.

I was leaning toward the traditional las/plas or Las/flamer tac squads backed up by melta speeders and / or drop pod melta dreads / melta sternguard. They also have a better survivability rate given more options in CC than a bog tactical squad has.

Or is there something about the tac squad having a multi melta that I'm missing than it's free or anything I said before?

My tac squads have Multimeltas and meltas and probably a magnetized flamer somewhere. Even without the tank-destroying bonus I like the stats of a Multimelta, and if you're using the generic SM codex, they're free. I think. The lascannon does have a nice reach, though. Magnetize them unless you can formulate a strategy that is able to cause the multimelta to be as hard hitting as the lascannon in half the range. Then, describe to me that strategy so I can beat my brother's damned necrons.

Get yourself some Thunderhammer and Stormshield terminators and go to town on the necrons.

Again the focus of the thread is on making a tactical squad useful against a heavy armor rush (LR/BW) and why to use a MM over a LC or vice versa. I'm trying to understand the thinking of the MM over the LC since odds wise it seems a push with the LC having greater range. The only reason I see is the MM can still kill a vehicle on a glancing 6 while a LC can only immobilize on a glance but can still penentrate on a 6.

I tend to favor the LC on this one. I usually field at least 3 tac squads and want each to be useful no matter where the game goes. With a Las they can be useful even if the battle ends up moving in the complete other direction. I'll usually throw a regular melta gun in at least two of them just in case they wind up close to some armor, because I see there role vs. armor as more of a "shot of opportunity" rather than a dedicated tank hunter.

My favourite tac setup so far is two with a LC and Melta, one of those split into combat squads, and a third with a PC and flamer to send after those pesky mass-infantry.

Meltas all the way.
AP1 2d6 pen is practically auto kill on vehicles.
but then again, I play Space Wolves, so getting in someones face is not a problem.

There is nothing to "understand", a melta weapon is superior to a lascannon in every way if you can get in range. It is cheaper, stronger, AP1, etc etc etc.

The lascannon has longer range. To get the meltas in close, you need to use Drop Pods, Rhinos or Razorbacks, or mount the meltas on platforms that can move and shoot, such as attack bikes, dreadnoughts and land speaders.

As for Lascannons, the best place to put them is on Razorbacks, and let the tac marines have their free melta.

Hollismason wrote:Get yourself some Thunderhammer and Stormshield terminators and go to town on the necrons.

This is the wrong answer for Necrons. Lightning Claw assault terminators are just as well protected against Necrons because of their relative lack of power weapons and AP 1/2 weaponry. They also have more attacks and take advantage of the fact that the terminators have better initiative than the Necrons.

willydstyle wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Get yourself some Thunderhammer and Stormshield terminators and go to town on the necrons.

This is the wrong answer for Necrons. Lightning Claw assault terminators are just as well protected against Necrons because of their relative lack of power weapons and AP 1/2 weaponry. They also have more attacks and take advantage of the fact that the terminators have better initiative than the Necrons.

And neither of these have anything to do with the topic of the thread...

I usually don't have tactical squads shoot at tanks, so i usually give them heavy bolters, plasmaguns, and a missile launcher here and there, if i want a "shooty" squad

but i usually use tactical squads as close fire support for assault units. I occasionly give them drop pods

so for heavy weapons i would always go with a lascannon for "Tank Hunting" units

but for most of my anti-armour, i go with five man melta gun squads, and my own armour

Charlatan wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Get yourself some Thunderhammer and Stormshield terminators and go to town on the necrons.

This is the wrong answer for Necrons. Lightning Claw assault terminators are just as well protected against Necrons because of their relative lack of power weapons and AP 1/2 weaponry. They also have more attacks and take advantage of the fact that the terminators have better initiative than the Necrons.

And neither of these have anything to do with the topic of the thread...

Obvious Troll is Obvious? What is your point?

And, dispelling bad information is always relevant.

whitedragon wrote:There is nothing to "understand", a melta weapon is superior to a lascannon in every way if you can get in range. It is cheaper, stronger, AP1, etc etc etc.

The lascannon has longer range. To get the meltas in close, you need to use Drop Pods, Rhinos or Razorbacks, or mount the meltas on platforms that can move and shoot, such as attack bikes, dreadnoughts and land speaders.

As for Lascannons, the best place to put them is on Razorbacks, and let the tac marines have their free melta.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Tacticals can't move and fire the multimelta. Podding Tacs doesn't do any good either cause they can't fire the MM and then get swarmed. The other options you listed I already said I thought were superior platforms. A lascannon is at least some deterrent and threat with the longer range.

Free is the right price I guess for the multimelta since you'll never get to use most of it's abilities (barring a screwup on your opponent's part) and you have basically an AP1 missile launcher with half the range. Once a transport is w/i 14", your tacs are engaged.

Ashaman wrote:I usually don't have tactical squads shoot at tanks, so i usually give them heavy bolters, plasmaguns, and a missile launcher here and there, if i want a "shooty" squad

but i usually use tactical squads as close fire support for assault units. I occasionly give them drop pods

so for heavy weapons i would always go with a lascannon for "Tank Hunting" units

but for most of my anti-armour, i go with five man melta gun squads, and my own armour

Normally I would agree with you on not engaging armor with tacticals, but my opponents lately haven't given much option since they see tacticals as basically a free kill (BW spam, Khorne Terminators in a Land Raider, etc.).

And yes, I know I can autofail a morale test and leave them swinging in the breeze. However, if they don't get there to begin with it makes things much simpler.

If you want to make a Tactical Squad formidable, then make sure one of your HQ choices is Captain Sicarius. One Tactical Squad in his army can have one of the following: Counter-Attack, Infiltrate, Scout, or Tank Hunters.

Further combine Sicarius with Tigurius, mainly for the Gift of Prescience, and you can have a Tactical Squad that can outflank, infiltrate a Multi-Melta, etc.

To the OP.

You seem very passionate about your lascannon. But people are telling you to take multi-meltas in a thread where you are asking how to make your tac squad more formidable.

Unless you are parking a combat squad in your own deployment zone, which i wouldn't recommend, then you are much better off with the free multi-melta.

10x space marines 1x flamer 1x multi-melta 1x meltabomb rhino

drive the rhino forward as your army advances. Tac squads should be a bit back off of the main advance as they are troops and you need to conserve them for the late game. Usually after one turn of moving and popping smoke, your multi-melta has a great field of fire in the middle of the table. You can shoot at transports and light vehicles with the 24" range function, which although 16% less likely to penetrate 13/12/11/10 armor, it has a 16% better chance to inflict permanent damage, is twice as likely to remove the target model from the table when destroyed, and it was free. When enemy dreadnoughts and land raiders attempt to get closer to your rhinos, then you can kill them with ease with the 2d6 shot.

The melta does just as well at killing light vehicles as the lascannon from 24" range, with a rhino and an aggressive strategy to get them into position you can really influence the center of the table. To repel heavy vehicles that are hell-bent on getting close to you, the multi-melta does an excellent job, and its free.

@OP: Agreed with Shep about your stance on Lascannons. If you like them that much more than Mulit-meltas, why bother with the discussion at all? The biggest benefit in favor of the MMs is their cost vs. that of the LCs for similar, if not better, results. Another way to make Multi-meltas the obvious choice is by including Vulkan in your list. Use him and Sicarius, and you will have a pretty scary tac squad indeed.

Tac squads are about as bland of a troop choice available. In order to get the good stuff you have to have 10 of the marines in the unit. Lascannons only have a 22% chance of doing any damage (either a pen or a glance) to any vehicle with AV14.

With the 5th edition metagame changing to favor pure mech builds thanks to IG you'll have to bring a lot of lascannons to stand a chance. Unless you go Melta.

The trick is to remember that the tac squad doesn't operate in a vacume. If you have a lot of mobile Melta in your force you will force the other player to come to you. Most enemy forces have some kind of unit they need to get into range to assult you. This means that those rhinos, land raiders, wave serpents, and valkeries will be traveling full speed towards your units. All it takes is one full 12" move and smoke poped to get the multimelta in range of most stuff.

AP1 makes a huge difference. 16% chance of destroying a vehicle on a glance vs. 0%. 50% chance of destroying a vehicle on a pen vs 33%.

Of course running Salamanders with Vulkan leading the way makes this an even better deal.

Plus what happens if there is nothing for the lascannon to shoot at? Chances are you'll have something to fire bolters at if needed if you are within multi melta range.

I really am just trying to understand. Obviously I question the multimelta so I'm pointing why while pointing out why I question it so those views can get answered. Sicarus was something I had not considered which is an interesting idea.

Multimeltas on foottroops works great. One just need to realize that their succesfull use requires something of a change in mindset.

Putting a multimelta on a Tactical squad changes that squad. Keeping them back, like you would a Lascannon-armed one, doesn't work. Sheep points out a great way of using them.
Two (combat)squads with Multimeltas can even, depending on terrain, use its first turn to Run into position, taking up a powerfull position for future turns. This of course isn't too smart against an opponent who will be in your face on turn 2, but it will work just fine against most other opponents.

Multi-meltas should come with suspensors. Dude, they are SpaSe Marinez. Multi-meltas are free now, both are good.

I ran the numbers vs AV13 the other day, and a MM should be identical to a LC in the 12-24" range. Inside 12" the MM is much better, and, obviously, outside 24" the LC is infinitely better.

One thing the MM does for you that's very, very nice is it gives you much more of a clear path to success. There's still chance involved, but if you can get within 12" and shoot it at a tank, you've got a good chance of killing it. It's a lot easier to plan around this. It lets you know that if you play smart, you SHOULD be able to kill a tank.

With an LC, you just sorta plink away, could have a kill turn 1, could be turn 6, could be never. Much easier to use, much less predictable. No matter how intelligently you use the LC, you're still just counting on your rolls to pay off.

Overall, I'd say the LC is a better choice. It can function fine with minimal support.

If you plan for it, the MM has more upside. If it's supported correctly, it's much more effective at tank killing.

It all comes down to the "Tacs doesn't do any good either cause they can't fire the MM and then get swarmed" thing... Unsupported, sure. But what if they've dropped in on an objective, they're supported by a squad of Sternguard, or a Dread, or both?

In playing to the missions in the 5e rules, a lot of them are a wash, but one that sticks out is Capture and Control. Optimally you're going to end the game with a Troops choice on your objective, and one on his. In this context, it makes sense to have a LC on yours, and a MM on his.

Phryxis wrote:It all comes down to the "Tacs doesn't do any good either cause they can't fire the MM and then get swarmed" thing... Unsupported, sure. But what if they've dropped in on an objective, they're supported by a squad of Sternguard, or a Dread, or both?

And I would add, if you just shoot out of a fire point of a rhino, then you can't really be swamped. They can kill your rhino, then you fall out and are in position to double tap bolters or fire pistols and charge next turn. Mechanized marines have a learning curve, but once you fully utilize what a transport can do for you (i.e. it doesn't JUST move you around) then shorter range but much more devastating guns like flamers, meltaguns and multi-meltas become much more attractive.

Mech is king in 5th edition. Somebody at GW said "Man, the entire draw of this game is tanks, since without them it's really just generic fantasy in SPACE! If we make everyone want to buy a million tanks, it will be great for everyone and we will make money."

Then the transport + squad boxes vanished never to be seen again.... :(

Coincidence?

You decide...

Okay, before I post my loadout, I want to preface that I've gotten a lot oc flak for these choices, but I've hardened them and my tactics with them throughout several games now, and continue to do so, so take this as a working suggestion.

My favored troops loadout looks like this:

Tactical x 10 - Lascannon, Meltagun, PF, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
Tactical x 10 - Plasmacannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
Tactical x 10 - Plasmacannon, Flamer, Powersword, Melta Bombs, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
[at 2000+] Tactical x 10 - Rocket Launcher, Flamer, Powersword, Rhino

I also use Sicarious as my mainstay HQ.

Typically I will assign Tank Hunters to the first squad, since it benefits everything. The LC Combat squad sits and shoots at Str 10, the Razorback-mounted forward squad has Melta shots at Str9, and the Powerfist is Str 9 against vehicles. Alternatively, Sicarious can allow one squad to Outflank, Infiltrate, or Counterattack as you see fit. Outflanking a nice chunky 10 man squad in a Rhino (like Tac 4) is a great way to save a haymaker for the final turns, and with luck, can net you a home objective steal once in a while.

The two Plasmacannon squads allow me to shut down fire lanes to infantry. G,M,and TEQ's alike fear the PC, and I've even used these for transport popping in early turns many times. Sure, they're dangerous. That's why I take two. I've had spotty rolling all over the place, but I've never failed to get my points out of these guys, and now, I get those points just in intimidation factor. I've had my regular Blood Angels opponent so scared of them, he's gone balls-to-the-wall to get them, ignoring a Vindicator and a Land Raider Redeemer to take them out.

The three Razorbacks will go down, but played conservatively with a good amount of other Mech in the army, they'll get the chance to do what they need to do. Just remember that they are primarily a transport, and a squad supporting gun-boat second. Two meltas (plus a combi-), a flamer, two PFists, a Psword, and a Combimelta have done me good so far for the forward squads. I hate spammed tacticals, I like them to have personality, but moreso, I like tactical diversity.

Also, having Sicarious means everyone, including the leaderless heavy weapon teams at the back, is Ld 10. Nothing sucks more than having 80 points of Space Marines with your Plasma Cannon run off the board on a 9.

As far as Multi-Meltas go, if I were to use one, I'd do this:

Tactical x 10 - Multi-Melta, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Powerfist, Rhino + EA

Charge forward into the greatest concentration of enemy armor, take the closest target with your two meltagun shots, then watch your opponent fall all over themselves getting armor out of that 24" bubble. Anything too slow to scamper gets it in the tailpipe next turn. I agree that this is possibly the worst way to deploy a Multi-Melta though. Perhaps if you Infiltrated the squad (sans transport) right on top of the enemy at the beginning of the game, you could set up that Zone Defense early enough to really funnel the enemy to your killzone.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Okay, before I post my loadout, I want to preface that I've gotten a lot oc flak for these choices, but I've hardened them and my tactics with them throughout several games now, and continue to do so, so take this as a working suggestion.

My favored troops loadout looks like this:

Tactical x 10 - Lascannon, Meltagun, PF, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
Tactical x 10 - Plasmacannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
Tactical x 10 - Plasmacannon, Flamer, Powersword, Melta Bombs, Razorback w/ LCtlPG
[at 2000+] Tactical x 10 - Rocket Launcher, Flamer, Powersword, Rhino

I also use Sicarious as my mainstay HQ.

Typically I will assign Tank Hunters to the first squad, since it benefits everything. The LC Combat squad sits and shoots at Str 10, the Razorback-mounted forward squad has Melta shots at Str9, and the Powerfist is Str 9 against vehicles. Alternatively, Sicarious can allow one squad to Outflank, Infiltrate, or Counterattack as you see fit. Outflanking a nice chunky 10 man squad in a Rhino (like Tac 4) is a great way to save a haymaker for the final turns, and with luck, can net you a home objective steal once in a while.

The two Plasmacannon squads allow me to shut down fire lanes to infantry. G,M,and TEQ's alike fear the PC, and I've even used these for transport popping in early turns many times. Sure, they're dangerous. That's why I take two. I've had spotty rolling all over the place, but I've never failed to get my points out of these guys, and now, I get those points just in intimidation factor. I've had my regular Blood Angels opponent so scared of them, he's gone balls-to-the-wall to get them, ignoring a Vindicator and a Land Raider Redeemer to take them out.

The three Razorbacks will go down, but played conservatively with a good amount of other Mech in the army, they'll get the chance to do what they need to do. Just remember that they are primarily a transport, and a squad supporting gun-boat second. Two meltas (plus a combi-), a flamer, two PFists, a Psword, and a Combimelta have done me good so far for the forward squads. I hate spammed tacticals, I like them to have personality, but moreso, I like tactical diversity.

Also, having Sicarious means everyone, including the leaderless heavy weapon teams at the back, is Ld 10. Nothing sucks more than having 80 points of Space Marines with your Plasma Cannon run off the board on a 9.

As far as Multi-Meltas go, if I were to use one, I'd do this:

Tactical x 10 - Multi-Melta, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Powerfist, Rhino + EA

Charge forward into the greatest concentration of enemy armor, take the closest target with your two meltagun shots, then watch your opponent fall all over themselves getting armor out of that 24" bubble. Anything too slow to scamper gets it in the tailpipe next turn. I agree that this is possibly the worst way to deploy a Multi-Melta though. Perhaps if you Infiltrated the squad (sans transport) right on top of the enemy at the beginning of the game, you could set up that Zone Defense early enough to really funnel the enemy to your killzone.

If I'm ever in Dallas, looking for a game, I'm going to find you. Preferably, I'd have you on my team.

Honestly, I think the whole debate over exactly which heavy weapon MUST be taken is overrated. I mean, Plasmacannons are questionable, but whatever...

The key to GeneralRetreat's list is the use of the Razorback and Combat Squads. This idea has been around, but it's a good idea, and a much more useful answer to "making the Tac squad formidable" than quibbling over which heavy weapon. It's an entire tactic, rather than one minor listbuilding choice.

One thing of note is that the MM becomes pretty useless here. When you Combat Squad with Razorbacks, you've got a long ranged piece that sits back and gunlines, and a up close piece that brings Meltas and Fists into the fight. No place in that for the MM.

If you really, really want to fine tune things, you can start to question the makeups of the squads. I don't totally agree with the way GeneralRetreat loads them out, but I think it's good enough.

As always, the key is to find a winning combination, then fill your list with it. I'm not sure the CombatSquadRazorBack combo is as broken as some of the other list cores (Lashes, Carnfexes, BikeNobz, Bloodcrushers, Falcons), but it's also a lot more robust. You may not surprise anybody, but they're also not going to surprise you. There's just no easy way to get rid of lots of Marines and vehicles.

Mounted all the way.

But personally I prefer the Rhino over the Razorback. Mainly because in objective missions I like to keep the squad together.

You've got so many options as a Space Marine player. I do love the Razorback tactic, especially the LCtlPG turret. Every other turret is a twin-linked single weapon, which means one WD result away from being an undercapacity Rhino. This one has two weapons, so if you loose one, you have the other. This makes it an even more robust squad supporting vehicle. See, so many people have pidgeonholed these into a role as a light tank, with the added bonus of being able to carry a combat squad if needed. I use them as dedicated transports with the added capability to be a third firebase within the tactical loadout. I love the idea of combat squads, I started playing in 4th and couldn't believe that you couldn't do that already. I mean, in the fluff, and in the general options for Tacticals, you'd almost assume they could squad up when needed. Super warriors aren't going to be so stupid they can't figure out when to split into move-and-fire groups.

So with the new codex, I was overjoyed to find that Combat Squads was a reality. This is the tactic I used to envision when I thought of Marines. Heavy weapons sit in good firing positions with four extra marines for coverage, while the Seargent takes four marines in the transport and operates within the heavy weapons' arc of control. Sound tactic, neh? Well, in so doing with Rhinos, I find myself outgunned if an enemy can find a way to blast the forward squad and stay hidden from the HW squad. With the Razorback, I have a second highly threatening Heavy firebase which escorts that front unit around. It shoots like a vehicle, and can provide mobile walling, but more often, the forward squad is screening it, while it blasts away with the power of a whole other squad, AND my HW squad is firing from on high basically unnoticed. A Lascannon and a twin-linked (not getting hot) plasmagun is a considerable amount of high quality fire, all on it's own. Add five marines, a meltagun, a powerfist, and it's MUCH more robust. Cover the whole thing with a well-guarded Plasma Cannon, and what you get is a 3-layer overlapping Field of Fire effect that is just as effective on the table as it is in real life. No unit fights unsupported, and I find the extra points spend on the transports pays off in the fact that one Tactical squad can weigh in with the kind of firepower only an Elite or Heavy choice can normally
offer.

Case in point:

Tactical x 10 - Lascannon, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Powerfist. Razorback with LCtlPG + EA.

310 points

Squad weaponry:
2 Lascannons (one of which can fire after 6" movement)
1 Meltagun, transported
1 Combi-Melta, Transported
1 Twin-Linked Plasmagun, vehicle mounted so no GH, and can fire SS 24" after 6" movement)
1 Powerfist
7 Boltguns

You have three separate fire groups, all with the support ability of the others, and together, they form a redundant anti-vehicle solution on the battlefield. Individual unit resiliency is indeed low, but weight of fire and transported mobility goes a long way to negate that.

This is just one good way to use it. Think about what you can do with a Plasma-spam squad as well for anti-infantry.

Also, if you do have an independant character, Razorbacks provide that one extra seat to give him a ride. If you've got all Rhinos, he's gonna walk. I use Sicarious, usually without Command Squad, so I can put him with any of these battlegroups with no problem.