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So I want to try Iron Hand instead of Creed for a bit, see how counter assault changes my army.

But who should I put in with him?

The cheap option is just 2 plasma guns (to shoot while he hides in the Chimera waiting for bad guys) and an astropath for 110 points.

The pricey option is the closest to assault gaurd you can get:

CCS, Medipack (feel no pain), 2 plasma guns (fire at incoming foes), 2 flamers (fire before assault), carapace (4+ save makes a big difference in melee), astropath (of course) and 2 bodyguads.

All for 195 points. Ouch.

Anyone see a good middle ground?

Looking at my pile of old Necro and RT models I can make a pretty decent cyborg command squad and have one very sweet medic.

The second one. 195 points isn't much for an HQ choice that good.

I should clarify neither option includes the 95 points for Iron Hand so the real totals are 205 (2 plasmas) and 290 (flamers, bodyguards, carapace etc).

And then there's the Chimera.

Anyone see something I can cut from the second option?

Nope. It's dead 'ard and can dish out a lot of pain.

It depends on how you plan to use the CCS.

Personally, I would use him to anchor my firebase. Give him a Standard Bearer and slap some flamers or meltaguns in the mix (make sure they're assault weapons), or keep it cheap and just give them CCW&pistols.

I would also toss in a PCS w/ Chenkov and just throw down my firebase around those two squads. Imagine all those guardsmen with Furious Charge, Counter Assault, Stubborn and reroll morale Hell, you could even go crazy and give the infantry squads Sgts Powerweapons.

Now that would be a fun game.

Properly outfitting an Strakken HQ costs way too much. Go buy two LRBT's instead.

But taking away his ranged fire means I'm not suing his BS4 fire team.

I hear the point about buying tanks instead but sooner or later something will break through my fire and I need somebody to stop them.

Who else can do it?

Besides you're gonna love the model I'm using...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I hear the point about buying tanks instead but sooner or later something will break through my fire and I need somebody to stop them.

Who else can do it?

Ogryns. Believe it or not but you get some amazing stopping power for less than those 290 points - 250 will suffice, perhaps even 210 when the opposition is shot up enough. Now of course there will be times when the big brutes go down, say against Bloodletters or a Warboss or something like that but hey, so will most everything else.

You can buy them a Chimera or try to hide them behind existing armour just like the Straken squad.

They can only assault one thing per turn, because they cannot consolidate into CC. So you lose a 70 point squad, or a 55 point chimera...whooptedo. Next turn you blow them away with the rest of your army.

I think to make use of Straken's 95 points, you have to build the army around him. Now, I'm not exactly sure everything that would work best for him, but there are some things that seem solid.

Infantry Platoons: Regular 10 man squads, with a few Commissars in there to stiffen the line, and a few Power Weapons to give killing power allow your line squads to perform as counter-charge and objective taking troops. Using large combined squads allows more efficient usage of Commissars, and gives more killing power in close combat.

2 Combined Infantry Squads, 2 Power weapons, special and heavy weapons of player's taste.

Charging vs T4 power armor-
Sergeants: 8 x .5 x .5 = 2 Dead at I4
Rest of Squad: 36 x .5 x .5 .33 = 3 Dead at I4 (a squad leader will have to take a save in a 10 man squad)
Total Points: 120+special/heavy weapons

Counter Assaulting vs. T4 power armor
Sergeants: 8 x .5 x 1/3 = 4/3 dead at I3
Rest of Squad: 36 x .5 x .33 x .33 = 2 dead at I3

2nd round of combat
Sergeants: 6 x .5 x .33 = 1 dead at I3
Rest of Squad: 18 x .5 x .33 x .33 = 1 dead at I3

Now, in all likelyhood, the second two situations (and sometimes the first) will be even worse because of inflicted casualties, but this is quite reasonable for a 150 point squad that is firing two heavy weapons and special weapons as the enemy closes in.

Looking at these numbers, I think that I might rethink the need for commissars. I think you might have one big squad with a commissar to act as a shield or hammer unit (depending on the enemy), but these 20 man paired squads can stay pretty cheap and put a lot of shooting and counter-attacking ability in the field. They're also nice recipients of orders.

I might be totally wrong here in practice, just some brainstorming.

Incorrect that they can only charge one thing per turn - multiple charging is now very easy to do (compared to previous) and a smart squad commnader will do that. You stay locked for your turn and wipe out on your opponents, leaving you safe from fire for a turn. You can then try to assault in to hopefully drag the combat to a 3rd player turn (i.e. the original assaulting players) but this is risky and can be to no avail.

I just dont think guard do well on the attack: just anticipate their attacks and manouvere - push a squad forward to remove the multicharge opportunity and make them charge it or get shot. Assuming they are a halfway decent CC squad your 10 guard will die orget run down in 1 turn, leaving your opponent to either consolidate back hoping to find cover or forwards into your gun, again to cut down your fire lanes and create 4+ cover from some of your shooting.

Play to guard strengths: just a powerfist on a PCS can be sufficient as any big nasties should be severely whittle down by the time they get to you.

But I WANNA use Iron Fist Steve Austin!

If you want to use Stracken then go all out and give him the support he needs to be a flat out kick ass assault team.

I.E. Grey Knight Terminator Hero!

Add him to the squad with Stracken, a medic and two bodyguards and you have some serious but whoopin capability. Give him advisors and some long range firepower in the squad as well and you make him somethign the enemy will have a hard time ignoring, but a very hard time killing as well.

With wound allocation, bodyguard abuse and the ability to allocate to the invulnerable saves you will make torrent units cry trying to take this unit out in any kind of cover.

Its expensive as hell and not the best thing guard can do, but it should also be tons of fun!!!

If you field Straken as Iron Hand Steve Austin, and add a GK Hero to the unit - I think you need to model the GK as Hulk Hogan. Just saying.

Ah, what the hell. Add kell in there for his power fist and sword.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:But taking away his ranged fire means I'm not suing his BS4 fire team.

I hear the point about buying tanks instead but sooner or later something will break through my fire and I need somebody to stop them.

Who else can do it?

Besides you're gonna love the model I'm using...

Well, what do you normally give a CCS? Standard Bearer and few meltaguns? Lets say 95pts. Now instead of a 2nd CCS of 95pts, you take Iron Hand.

You loose 3 BS4 meltaguns and a 2nd Standard. However, you gain 12" FA&CA bubble and a CC counter change unit. The main reason to take him is to cause your firebase to gain FC&CA. Basically all you need to sacrifice is CCS or a squad of meltavets.

So the question is, is having a 12" FC&CA bubble worth a Melta CCS/Vet squad? Imo, if you build a list that can take advantage of the bubble (ie lots of infantry squads with perhaps a few powerswords, and perhaps Chenkov), then you can make it work. Just be sure to take plenty of meltaguns.

Personally I plant to try this list out myself, should be a lot of fun!

Can you take a special weapon on a Vet that you made a medic? I thought they were mutually exclusive...

Anyway, for counter charging CCS goodness, I would put in 2 meltas and a flamer and a medic, plus the bodyguards. Meltas are really nice for things like Chaos lords, Marine nastys, and many other things that have T4(X) and not Eternal Warrior, as well as the odd Dread or the like. The flamer will get a lot of wound/kills on larger squads like orks. Two flamers might be nice, but in general I would be more worried about making certain I get an insta-gib on a Terminator lord or the like than a few more wounds on other softies that lasguns will weaken.

Wehrkind wrote:Can you take a special weapon on a Vet that you made a medic? I thought they were mutually exclusive...

They are.

I read the title of this thread as "Iron Hand Autism" and I said to myself "Omg, let's check out this gak storm".

Throw a heavy flamer in there and a chimera should be good and a medic. don't forget grenade lauchers.

The plan now is for the Bionic Six

Iron Hand
Medic
2 plasma guns (so they have something to do while waiting to charge)
1 flamer (maybe upgrade to heavy flamer)
2 bodyguards

I'll see how it goes.

dietrich wrote:If you field Straken as Iron Hand Steve Austin, and add a GK Hero to the unit - I think you need to model the GK as Hulk Hogan. Just saying.

Interesting. I assumed we were talking about the 6 Million Dollar Man, not the wrestler...

RZ

Yeah Steve Austin the Six Million Dollar Man, not the wrestler.

And I'd use Nork as Hulk Hogan Not a bad idea now that I think of it...

Anyway I tried him out in one game vs Ultramarines. Oddly not enough marines got through the line for me to use him. A squad of Termis and assualt marines made it. But Rambo blew up four termis and we shot down a bunch more leaving just the chappy. So the plasma gunners shot him too.

If I'd advanced him to support a squad of flaming vets when they assaulted a marine squad he might have made a difference wiht his 12" furious charge bubble. But generally, didn't need him that game.

hrm.

I tried very, very hard to incorporate him into my army. He has several major flaws surrounding him. One, you must blow around 250 points on your HQ to be effective. Two, the rest of your army is pretty much built around him from then on. Three, he is a niche character, yet not powerful enough to drag your army to victory.