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Hi guys, I usually hang out in the WHFB & 40k forums. This is my first time in the WM / Hordes one.
I've been playing Khador for quite a while. Around 1000 pts or so models. I like their fluff, I like big hard to kill things... well after I got beaten miserably by Skorne & Legion on a Steam Roller tourney, held at my LGS last month, everything changed...

It was then I realized Hordes are soo broken. You can add fury to buy an extra attack... at the activation of the light / heavy warbeast. While in WM, you gotta allocate focus at the start of your turn... if you can't reach the enemy, those allocated focus will go to waste. Vlad has 7 focus, but he had to cast 3-4 focus spells nearly each turn to boost himself / his army. They don't lose their weapons when their branch is out, etc2

I know I'm not an expert player, got beaten by being charged, small mistakes, wrong calculations here and there, etc, but IMO it's highly unfair for a 62 pts cyclops savage beating the hell out of my 126 pts beast 09 without breaking a sweat. My army of beast 09, drago, vlad, greylord ternions & demo corps, to name a few (which cost me more than $150) got their ass handed by a skorne warpack + agonizer & paingivers (cost proly around $90-$100 TOPS)

Even if I keep on playing and improving my strategies (not to mention getting new warcaster & models, etc) I dont think it will do me any good, especially when hordes has a more brutal system compared to WM.

If you can't beat them, join them they say, so I'm planning to do the same by purchasing a hordes faction. Problem is, I dunno which one is best for me. Skorne seemed nice, they do hit hard and have tough ARM like Khador, but mobility wise, they lose out to legions and circle. The trollbloods are like menoths; a combination of effects, animus, models and spells, so I don't think i want to play them.

It's legion, skorne or circle I guess. And since my metagame is filled with hordes (especially legions) player, I need a faction that can beat warbeast constantly. (If khador has a way to do that, I'll be even happier)

I really need the tips, suggestions and insights from you guys about this. Thanks in advance!

PS : The new typhon model seemed very cool, it made me lean to legions even more lol

Khador vs. Hordes

Blizzard from the Greylords will prevent non-Reach charges from touching your warjacks, and
if the warbeasts approach too closely to your greylords you have the Ice Cage spam solution. It's
easier said than done, but don't give the Cyclops (either one) an 15" Charge lane against your
heavy hitters. Stuff the lanes with MOW Democorps with Blizzard on them.

This is important, though. If he's launching Savages 13" they might be leaving Morghoul's
control area. If they leave his control area, they can't be forced to boost or buy attacks.

Key pieces to dropping that army: Paingivers, Agonizer. Unfortunately, your army doesn't
look like it has a solution to deal with squishy units and solos at range.

The Paingivers HAVE to go away. Otherwise, he has too much utility for all three warbeasts. He
can play attrition, he can increase his threat, and he can reliably run his warbeasts hot.

If he puts that Agonizer forward, he reduces the effectiveness of your warjacks.

With those things in mind, you have to prevent charges against your expensive heavy
hitters and look for an opening against the paingivers or agonizer. I think you'll only get an
opportunity against one at any given time. If he's pushing the agonizer to create a denial zone,
then maybe you have to push the Demo Corps out there to try to stamp it out before your
warjacks move ahead. If he's keeping it back, then see if you can hit the Paingivers at some point.

At least his feat doesn't work against you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also the Hail Mary play.

If Morghoul is within 14" of Vlad (which Vlad can measure) then you allocate 1 focus to
each jack or both to the jack within 8-11" of Morghoul. Activate Vlad. Advance, spend four
focus and Boost the attack roll to cast Impaler. If it hits, I think you're going to damage
Morghoul, which will make him stationary. Even if he transfers damage to a warbeast, he
is still made stationary. And because he's stationary, he won't be able to move from his fancy
upkeep spell, Unrelenting.

Of course you need a 10 to hit him, but still.

Pop feat.

Warjacks are now SPD 8. If they are fresh, I think they can stand to eat a freestrike while
either charging or advancing. In this case I think you should advance if you can get away
it, as you then spend the focus for additional attacks. Each attack automatically hits.

All of this is dependent on how much fury Morghoul is sitting on.

If he was using Paingivers to keep his warbeasts low on Fury, then he'll have three or
four for transfers. No good. If he has fury, however, and his warbeasts are full, then that's fine.

On average, Drago is dealing 4 wounds plus 3d6 for the charge, and then 5 wounds plus
2d6 for the second weapon. Finally, the chain attack will trigger and deal 6 wounds plus dice.

Adding damage from Impaler, based on average rolls:

7 wounds + 14 wounds + 12 wounds + 13 wounds = 39 wounds he has to transfer. He will
lose at least one warbeast this way. If he uses transfers to generate more fury for more transfers,
at least you gain a turn while his warlock is down. He can't cast or do his own assassination
run in retaliation. And he won't have the Unrelenting spell up (I think). If he kills one or more of
his own warbeasts to keep himself alive then you've just bypassed their armor by a good
3-5 points each hit. Awesome.

Of course, this all relies on Impaler hitting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, and if Vlad survives the following turn then I shouldn't have to tell you this.

BOK, Charge. Boosted MAT 10s will probably hit Morghoul.

POW 16 attacks is 3 wounds plus dice.

Morghoul has to drop eventually, right?

Trollbloods. Trollblood brick is amazing.

Gotta go with Malfred on this one. Trollblood brick is good sure, but Vlad, beast & drago are not going to be outdone by much out there.

Getting behind a Hordes army is a great way to learn of their weaknesses though.

Hmm, my general understanding is that Beasts > Jacks, but Infantry > beasts. You run Vlad, right? Grab yourself the Great Bears, a whole swarm of infantry and the mortars and move up on him. He'll move up and kill some infantry, then just casts S&P and crush him with old fashioned Khador Weapon Master living wave fu.

With no jacks to take your focus the only thing Vlad has to do is cast S&P and/or BoK, so an assassination would need to be fairly involved to work. If nothing else, trading favors you. As his beasts die his caster weakens, while Vlad doesn't care. Ultimately you can afford to lose out in the tradeoffs (but you shouldn't, because you've got more infantry than he does jacks), as Vlad can take out the last one, and sit on BoK and wave at Morghoul.

While I applaud your wanting to play hordes, you should make sure it's for the right reasons. Don't switch to a hordes army just because you think hordes is more powerful. The grass isn't always as green as it looks from the other side of the fence.

Case in point...Khador took two of the top three finishes at UK Masters. While a circle army took first, most people agree it was due to some luck and some player skill. Any of those players with the Khador armies could have easily taken first as well if some things went their way.

Now if you just want to play hordes for a change of pace / new dynamic / because you like the army / models, great! But if you switch just because you think it's more powerful...I think you'll be somewhat disappointed.

What you need to remember.... It was a tourney. The other player wasn't going to pull any punches. Skorne hits like a ton of bricks, but they take a year to get there. In a game like that, you have to use your SPD and pick your fights.

If you've been playing so long with Khador, dont switch just because someone out played you... It's going to happen again if you play Hordes. Sit back, heal your wounds, and then go crush some elephants...

If you do want to look into Hordes, Legion is speed on cocaine... They move fast, hit hard, then break like glass... They have great tricks, and are fun to learn to play. Circle needs to played differently. They need all their models working together towards one goal. I play Circle, and I've learned that I either windle another player down, or I build my list towards a caster/lock kill. The Circle Warpack is a great start, I've found myself playing Kaya, Krueger, and Baldur almost all the time. Primal is a great place to start for Circle.

Hey man, I play Khador and Circle (hence the name lol) and I have found one piece of stategy for Khador that I think of as invaluable: the Kholdun Lord. If you havn't read it's stats, this model is weak but is really hard to kill and has amazing abilities ( and you already take the grey lords so he gives them battle wizard!)

So, the Kholdun is a jack marshaller and has this spell that gives a jack he is controling concielment, also, if an enemy model ends its activation within 2" of the Kholdun it becomes stationary!!! wooo!! strategy for khador!!

so what I have done is marshall Drago so he still gains his extra bonuses while in Vlad's cntrl area.
I choose Drago because 1) if the Kholdun gets killed, he can still charge by himself and while benefiting from his personal "signs and portents", can hit and kill things easily, and 2) because with concielment he has a 13DEF! OMG! lol

you may want to read the rest of his abilities.... I simply placed him in the front of my army to f up my opponant's movement options.... hopefully that helps!

btw, could you tell me the list you used?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would say go for it! If you have been playing Khador this long, why not have fun with a new army?
But, there are ways to beat hordes with warmachine. In general, I think hordes has lower ARM and lower powered/ranged ranged attacks.
Also, one aspect that remains the same in warmachine and hordes is ROF. deal more damage in the ranged department to hopefully lessen the horrible beating in the melee depart. lol
I guess the main ways to win against a hordes army is to survive against the initial attacks from each Hordes warbeast. Then, once you kill some warbeasts the enemy is much softer because less fury for warlock which makes assassination easier....(it's already easy because they can't stack foc+ARM). don't know if that helps though....I can't give specific exmpls

Umm.. Stacking FOC for ARM is great and has it's uses, but I would rather be able to transfer damage and then later just heal my warbeast. I only need one un-marked circle in a single spiral to have my warbeast be able to attack normally...

Infantry is a key against Hordes. IMHO, Warmachine has better infantry, and your casters can support infantry very well. Hordes has less Infantry-support warlocks due to the fact that we need beasts in order to cast.

Silverwarrior88 wrote:Umm.. Stacking FOC for ARM is great and has it's uses, but I would rather be able to transfer damage and then later just heal my warbeast. I only need one un-marked circle in a single spiral to have my warbeast be able to attack normally...

ok yeah, I agree....don't know what I was thinking

Silverwarrior88 wrote:Infantry is a key against Hordes. IMHO, Warmachine has better infantry, and your casters can support infantry very well. Hordes has less Infantry-support warlocks due to the fact that we need beasts in order to cast.

cool. I had never thought about that. It's also due to the fact that warlocks have less spells generally because they can gain animus' (animi?) and whereas the animi on warbeasts usually only support other warbeasts or warlocks....nice.

I personally prefer the arm from focus over a transfer, as there's nothing an opponent can do (barring eiryss and the occasional feat) to stop you.

Whereas removing transfer options is a puzzle, but one with a solution. Once you get used to it there's not much a Hordes player can do if you focus down the warbeasts and stay safe while doing so. You'll also catch plenty of breaks when a Hordes player screws up their fury management and you can break through the transfers early.

If you've got one of the casters who can boost their armor into the 26+ range, you can lead your army from the front against a Hordes force and there's not a lot they can do about that armor (barring a few models from each faction that either bypass armor or actually hit WM hard).

marvelnube wrote:
...
It was then I realized Hordes are soo broken. You can add fury to buy an extra attack... at the activation of the light / heavy warbeast. While in WM, you gotta allocate focus at the start of your turn... if you can't reach the enemy, those allocated focus will go to waste. Vlad has 7 focus, but he had to cast 3-4 focus spells nearly each turn to boost himself / his army. They don't lose their weapons when their branch is out, etc.
...
Even if I keep on playing and improving my strategies (not to mention getting new warcaster & models, etc) I dont think it will do me any good, especially when hordes has a more brutal system compared to WM.
...

So far, I think the WarMachine(WM) and Hordes(Ho) systems are fairly comparable. The main limitation of Hordes is that their warlocks need to be near their warbeasts and frontlines, because if warbeasts charge out of their control range, then they can no longer be forced and the lock's fury is messed up next turn.

5-fury warlock has 10" control range. Beast with SPD 6 can charge 9". So if your 5-fury warlock is more than 2" or 3" behind your beast, then there is a good chance that your beast can not be forced after the charge... Where as WM jacks can be allocated focus 10" away, charge 9" out of control range, burn their focus to boost attacks, then activate the warcaster (run or charge) to catch up.

The need to be close to my beasts means that my warlock is very susceptible to slams and spells like Thunderbolt, Earthquake, etc. My WM warcaster is hardly ever knocked down except from Kreoss' feat, but it is not at all uncommon for my warlock to get knocked down or damaged from collateral damage, slams, throws, spells, etc. And unlike Vlad, we can not get 23+ ARM...

Wow, I haven't got time to check this thread, never guess it could become this crowded. Thanks a lot for the reply guys! Very sorry for the (extremely) late reply guys

malfred : wow... just wow.. thanks for the strategy man Luckily beast and drago didn't need too much focus, drago's chain attack is more than enough. Unfortunately, (I mentioned it before) before it happened, a single savage is enough to completely wreck them

I couldn't apply any attack, let alone a strategy when he blocked morg with all the beast he has. The savage missiles launched,
terminated drago and beast, the titan gladiator then followed and destroyed the demo corps IIRC.

Oldgrue & Moz : Trollbloods are pretty cool, though they still need synergy to trully shine. I heard that the trolls are on the lowest rank among horde factions post metamorphosis? And Moz.. I got brutally murdered by angry, armor piercing skorne & legions (couldn't remember which one) troops. So I don't think stacking up on ARM is a good idea.. Like they said, in Hordes / WM, it's all about aggresive play.

40kenthusiast: I think you're right... I only brought 3 demo corps as my heavy infantry. No bears, no ironfang pikemen, just the big hitters with beast, drago. Since beasts > jacks my 2 jacks and 3 demo dudes just couldn't stand up to them. But if I bring a complete ironfang troops I may have a chance.. Speaking of troops, what about doom reavers? With fenris I can bring two and they can be very deadly...

Acheron: Thanks for the warning man, I know it's probably just a momentary emotional outburst But the fact that I can play on an even field only with WM players baffled me. IMO not just Khador, with the right pilot, any faction can be at the top 3 of any tourney scene. I'm in the game more for the models and fun factor, playing with friends and stuff. Whether it's a tourney or casual play, I'll have a harder time learning when all my models are already destroyed before I can even do a thing.

The fact that a simple 62 pts savage cyclops is enough to kill a 126 pts beast 09 kinda proved what 40kenthusiast said (the same thing I've been thinking about) that beasts are > jacks. Even after mkII, IMO beasts are still better due to the ability to buy attack at will (fury system > focus system imo)

But I do love Horde's flavor, beasts and organic weapons of war. Learning new gameplay and resource management system (fury). And of course completing my PP products collection (Already have WM and Monpoc) So, the purchase is a given. It's just a matter of time.

Silverwarrior88 : Even if it's not a tournament, I believe skorne and Legions are especially brutal no matter what the occasion is. As for picking fights it's quite hard since the titan gladiator and 2 savages walked closely together. Even if I managed to kill a savage, the rest of the beasts will just rip apart my attacking team.

Being out played and beaten is normal, I know I'll probably gonna experience it again. It's all a part of learning.... but at least
by playing hordes I'm in equal footing with my friends' army.

Yeah about circle... I've studied more of them and realized that's not the kind of race I wanted to play. I like the in your face action
of skorne, so I finally went with it. I always love druids, forces of nature, wild beasts and elemental stuff (Green from MtG). Megalith looks cool, extreme warp wolf looks even nicer. I prolly gonna buy circle in the future for my collection and as a secondary Hordes race. But for now, I'm gonna stick to the guys (and err beasts) in red

And I agree, the ability to transfer damage is a LOT better than camping on focus. The 2-3 extra ARM won't do you any good when
a warbeast can just buy and boost attack mercilessly at ya. Warbeasts don't suffer as much as a warjack when they lost an aspect.

Yeah, I'll definitely get more Ironfang pikemen, its UA and Greatbears for sure next time. (I never paid too much attention to WM infantries since I don't want the usual infantry machine army list) Just want
warjacks with few hard hitting soldiers backing them up.

CircleKhadorKid : Thanks for the tips man! I never bothered with the koldun since I already got the kovnik. Don't need two marshalls... but after I read his stats in battlecollege, he's quite something... Cold Iron can help me hit ghostly models while the ability you mentioned, Freezing Mist can help the enemy away, or suffer a stationary state. Can be pretty scary in a sorscha list with destroyers and behemoths, hmmm...

I brought 2 list, only remembered the first one.
Vlad
Demo corps (3)
Drago
Beast 09
Eiryss
Gorman
Greylords
Yuri
(493/500)

Lol yeah, time to have some fun with new furry friends. (or not so furry when it comes to Skorne beasts)

Salisar : IMO warlocks and warcasters will always need to be near their beasts / jacks. Vlad still wants drago to be in his control
area so the metal giant can receive the affinity & S&P effect. Even with 5 fury, morg is already that deadly, can't imagine
how makeda performs, with molik karn getting an extra fury and her praetorian karax doing a carnage powered combined melee attack...

Being slammed, thrown etc is something both warcasters and warlocks are Susceptible to anyway... IMO it's just a matter of screening.
No matter how you look at it, Warmachines and Hordes aren't on an equal footing. The resource management system and level of brutality just ain't the same.

All in all, thanks for the insight, suggestions and 2cents, you guys are the best
I finally decided to buy Skorne. I just love heavy hitting, big bad-ass, brawlers. Molik Karn just made me fall in love with
Skorne even more. I just received them yesterday, I'm gonna put them together and paint them starting from today.

Coool! Nice list. I can't wait to get Beast-09! Him or the Spriggan...I need new jacks.....badly

So I am guessing...... Yuri acts as Eiryss' body guard....no one can touch her since Yuri can see through forest and hunt down anyone that comes looking for her....mosly

Then....run the Demo Corp forward, Greylords behind casting cloud effects, with Vlad casting Wind Wall to shelter the two Jacks which can get into combat unscathed and thrashing.

I don't know what you have Gorman in there for though....to run next to Eiryss so he can blind a warjack firing deviations at her? hmmmm... you don't have much ranged, and alll your models have high MAT/RAT so ne need to lower thier defense.... I'm curious, why? just because he is a cool model? I have an idea, switch him out for the Kholdun marshalling Beast. you can still fit them all in the wind wall and Vlad gets to keep more focus to keep casting Blood of Kings just suggest...

HEY, BTW, IF SOMEONE HASN'T ALREADY CORRECTED ME: I MISREAD THE KHOLDUN'S CARD... A model is only frozen if it ends its ACTIVATION w/in 2 inches, NOT if it ends it's MOVEMENT.
This just means keep him out of charge range and don't run him behind his Jack if an enemy model has slam range.....yeesh

For all those that say to take lots of infantry against Skorne, remember to watch out for Hexeris - on his feat turn, he can make any infantry heavy army cry. Likewise, against Circle, watch out for the Kreugar/Woldwarden lists. 3x Chain Lightning a turn at 13" sucks.

Back to the whole Hordes vs. Warmachine thing, I'm of the opinion that the two games are fairly well balanced, both against each other and amongst themselves. At the moment, there are only a few broken casters (Warcasters/Warlocks) that really are a problem - otherwise things seem fairly reasonable. It will be interesting to see what happens with Hordes come MkII, and likewise with Hordes as more books/models become available.

If you already play Khador, I'd recommend that you avoid Skorne, as the Skorne playstyle is fairly similar (well, as similar as you get with a Hordes army). Go for something fast and manoeverable, such as Circle or Legion. Both of these armies are fantastic, and have excellent tools for dealing with Hordes and Warmachine opponents alike.

Jesus Hordes is intense. I might never play 40k again after i finish building my army..