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Hey,

With summer kicking it into high gear, I've finally got the motivation to finish my Chaos Daemon army.
However, the dreadful GW Great Unclean One model has coaxed me into debating weather to rethink my army list or to buy GUOs from Ultraforge or Forgeworld.
Shelving out some cash for good-looking models isn't a problem, but I'm not confident enough in my painting skills to actually tackle something eye-catching like that, meaning I'd have to hire a professional painter to do the models justice, and then it wouldn't really be "my" army.

So back to the drawing board it is.

I've designed the army for a semi-competitive environment, meaning that I won't face too many cheesy lists (Double Lash plague marines, Nob bikers, et cetera) but I will face solid, tournament worthy lists (Marine bikers, mech eldar, template/nidzilla hybrid...), and as such, my list has to fall in the same category as they do.

Here is what I had originally:

HQ:

Great Unclean One
Cloud of flies
Total: 165

Great Unclean One
Cloud of flies
Total: 165

Troops:

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 plaguebearers

Elites:

3 Flamers of Tzeentch

3 Flamers of Tzeentch

6 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

Heavy Support:

Soulgrinder

Soulgrinder

Daemon Prince
Iron Hide
Mark of Nurgle
Noxious Touch
Total: 150

Total Army Cost: 1500

Wave Alpha:

GUO
GUO
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder
Bloodcrushers
Daemon Prince

Wave Beta:

Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Flamers
Flamers

Pretty standard daemonzilla list. It can drop all the scary stuff on wave 1 and let supporters like the flamers and troops dribble in as they become available. Wave 2 is rock solid with plaguebearers dropping into or near cover and going to the ground to soak up any shooting, while flamers have to play a little more cautiously.
The problem is destroying vehicles. I can't do it outside of assault. Yet with enough high-threat targets on the board, and hopefully being able to drop in a half-circle around the enemy, I figured I could catch some tanks in assault pretty easily and I knew that any vehicle that did get assaulted would be gone by next turn. (barring ironclad dreadnoughts of course)


With my old list as a base (model wise), this is what I came up with:

HQ:

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of sorcery
We Are Legion
Soul Devourer
Total: 130

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of sorcery
We Are Legion
Soul Devourer
Total: 130

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of sorcery
We Are Legion
Soul Devourer
Total: 130

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of sorcery
We Are Legion
Soul Devourer
Total: 130

Elites:

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

Troops:

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 plaguebearers

Heavy Support:

Soulgrinder

Soulgrinder

Daemon Prince
Unholy Might
Mark of Tzeentch
Bolt of Tzeentch
Soul Devourer
Total: 170

Total Army Cost: 1500 pts


Wave Alpha

Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Daemon Prince
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder

Wave Beta

Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Bloodcrushers
Bloodcrushers

This adresses the anti-tank problems the previous list had and continues the Offensive/Defensive theme I have going on with the different waves. The chariots and prince can both assault and shoot quite well, and the Heralds' T4 is offset by W5 and eternal warrior. I do lose out on two more MCs by not taking the GUOs, but I feel I have more utility. Moreover, I'd have all the models needed for the army with some conversion work on the flamers so they could act as heralds.

I'm not totally sold on changing the list just because I like the Ultraforge/Forgeworld GUO models so much, but I feel very iffy about the whole ordeal involved with having them painted.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I'd particularly like to hear what things you would change in the list, because that usually offers a lot of insight I might have missed otherwise.

Thanks in advance!

I like the new list, Heralds of Tzeentch are amazing. With facing competitive lists in mind, you might want to swap a unit of Crushers for fiends. I think it would benefit you for being able to have that speed.

Im also iffy on the soulgrinders. They can be taken down by a single shot, while Daemon Princes will never be able to be taken down in one shot. Running 2x of that DP you have made up and turning the Grinder into a 8 man unit of letters (maybe combine 2 of the Plaguebearers into one 10 man squad to be your main tarpit unit) would get you more troop power and the letters power weapons are so nice.

I would take one unit of six crushers as opposed to two of three.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would take one unit of six crushers as opposed to two of three.

As far as I see it, Crushers offer resilience and consistency while fiends tend to be more random but can strike more precisely.

Since they can't assault first turn, the Crushers belong in the defensive wave. I plan to use them as counter-assault units when I get hit with something big and scary, like terminators. If the Beta wave happens to come first, they can work as a vanguard and hold out until reinforcements arrive. Hopefully.

Fiends have a completely different style, as they need to be the ones initiating combat, and tend to prefer squishy targets. Taking them means I'd have to find something else to hang with the PBs on the Beta wave. Any suggestions for a possible proxy battle I'm having on Thursday?

I see what you mean with the grinders. I really like the models, but I have to admit that every lascannon and meltagun I face will undoubtedly be pointed at them first and the prince second. I suppose I could drop We Are Legion on all the heralds and exchange one of the grinders for another prince, but then I'd really want three and I have little else to drop for the points.

I feel that the plaguebearers should be enough for troops in games of 1500, which is what I mostly play, but I suppose I could drop the grinder and add a couple of the little ghoulies. Bloodletters I don't much care for (too wimpy for my tastes), but I wouldn't mind more Bloodcrushers...

Too many choices.

The PBs aren't meant to initiate combat, but rather hang back and waste the enemy's ammo. If they get assaulted, they probably can deal with it, keeping in mind that a 300 point dedicated assault unit will beat a 75 point defensive unit, or even a 150 point defensive unit every time.

Green Blow Fly: The only reason the crushers are in two groups is so I can have my uneven wave split shenanigans. I'm not worried about the extra kill point (I have 12 total already if I choose to combine the crushers), and anything that can kill three crushers in a single assault (looking at you, implant attack hive tyrant with retinue!) will probably cripple six crushers so badly that whatever damage I can do is negligible.
Against shooting there isn't really any difference, since crushers are fearless.

I suppose it is a bit harder to deep strike around with them in two groups, though.

Again, I'm having a proxy battle on Thursday to check out the list, so keep those suggestions coming! I'll probably get the proxy list together before then so you can rip that apart too.

Ok, I understand a lot of your points. I knew that the PB's would just be for objective grabbing and such. I just fear that your actual offensive force is to small. The Crushers are amazing as for the herlads, but the heralds are just one guy. You don't have a lot of guys going for the enemy is my worry. Combining 2 units of 5 PB's and making them into a tarpit assault unit would be a good idea.

I think that it would benefit you to give you PB's icons (maybe 1-2) and put them in the first wave and be very aggressive with them, if they die, its not that big of a deal, but if they land in a good spot, go to ground and call in the crushers etc. right in the enemies weak spot. Dropping both the grinder for a prince and then using the excess points for Letters or more Crushers might be another good idea. The DP's go tank hunting while the Letters back up the crushers in taking on the infantry and the heralds just kill stuff. PB's going to ground on an objective are going to be tuff to get out.

If you keep the army the way it is, it will imho rely on the soulgrinders getting in assault. If they can make it, then they can do some harm. At the same time, most people take meltas and getting so close could be their doom.

Alright, the list I've settled on for the proxy is something like this:

HQ:

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Soul Devourer
Total: 120

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Soul Devourer
Total: 120

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Soul Devourer
Total: 120

Herald of Tzeentch
Chariot
Bolt of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Soul Devourer
Total: 120
Elites:

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

Troops:

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 Plaguebearers

5 plaguebearers

Heavy Support:

Daemon Prince
Unholy Might
Mark of Tzeentch
Bolt of Tzeentch
Total: 160

Daemon Prince
Unholy Might
Mark of Tzeentch
Bolt of Tzeentch
Total: 160

Daemon Prince
Unholy Might
Mark of Tzeentch
Bolt of Tzeentch
Total: 160

Total Army Cost: 1500 pts

Wave Alpha

Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince

Wave Beta

Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Bloodcrushers
Bloodcrushers

Wave Alpha has all the shooty units (that aren't slouches in assault either) in it letting me go on the offensive from turn 1 and the wave makes for pretty good reinforcements as well. Wave Beta is resilient so it can stick around until reinforcements arrive and works wonderfully staying in reserve until it's needed. Note that Wave Alpha makes up nearly 1000 points while Wave Beta is only around 500.

I'll post results from the proxy games on Thursday.

I realize I'm a day late, but here goes...

Alright, so my game was against a friend's Deathwing army. It was a 4th edition list with three AC terminator squads as troops, two venerable dreads, a vindicator, belial and a Grey Knight Grand Master with hood.

Mission was Capture & Control with Dawn of War Deployment.

Result was a tactical draw, with him winning victory points by a huge margin.

I lost all my heralds, princes, one bloodcrusher squad and three plaguebearer squads (two to mishaps), while he lost a dread, the vindicator and three terminators. (GKGM suffered 2 wounds)

I gathered that this list can't really do much against lots of S4-S6 shooting. While I admit that my bad reserve rolls (I got Alpha wave at the start and I got nothing out on turn 2. Turn three gave me the bloodcrushers, and on turn four I got all the plaguebearers) and invulnerable saves did cost me a lot early on, I can't say that I was impressed by the new list at all.

I didn't have the volume of fire needed against terminators, and I rolled badly for both shooting and assault. Nevertheless, even with average rolls I would've been at a disadvantage.

Maybe it's because my opponent didn't have a single S8 shooting weapon in his list and all his shooting was geared towards low toughness units, but I feel that I could've benefited a lot from soulgrinders. Perhaps I'll try out three phglem-grinders instead of the princes next time.

I also figured that I'm going to need Daemonic Gaze on the princes instead of Unholy Might. I could've benefited a lot more from the extra shots than I did from the strength.

It should be noted that my opponent was playing for a draw from the start. He didn't have the mobility to cross the board with scoring units to get my objective. Instead he sat on his objective and shot me to pieces. If my two PB squads wouldn't have mishapped, I could've contested his objective (unlikely, but there would've been a possibility) allowing me to steal the win. He also tied down one of my BC squads with a dreadnought out of range of his objective, so I figure I could've pulled a win through sheer resilience at the end.

I may also change one herald for another Bloodcrusher squad. Depends on how the Gaze/Bolt princes work out together with the heralds.

I'll be facing the same opponent (who will be playing a different list) next week. I'll keep posting any changes I make to the list here.

Well, because of that fact he was playing for a draw, a win would have been very hard for you to accomplish either. If he was a good player, he could have set up in a corner and basically stopped anything and everything you threw at him. But he can't win period. If he does something like this, well, there isn't anything you can do. Deep strike extremely aggressive as always and hope you can maul him in assaults. I don't think almost any combination of anything could have really saved you here. Your only hope for a win would be to basically deep strike right on his head with your DP's and Crushers and the heralds would have to CC asap.

And I promise you, if you play a good mech opponent, he could literally set up in a way that would mean that you lose 9/10ths of the time. They have to be mechanized, and set up in a corner. Basically, he sets up his tanks like a V with the troops inside the V, preventing him from being assaulted. You have to rush this massive gunline with your daemons, and after maybe blowing up the rhinos you still have to take on tons of troops. it's almost impossible to pull a win against something like this.