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So Pedro has the special ability that if he is in your army, sternguard vet squads count as scoring units.

An army's scoring units all come from the troops allowance. Does that mean Pedro and two squads of sternguard vets satisfy the mandatory force org choices?

I'm guessing no, but curious if this has been answered before, and what peoples opinions on it are.

Are Sternguard Troops?

No they just count as scoring now if it said thay count as troops yes

You make an interesting point, but think of it this way, being a troop choice means that they are scoring but it also means they take up a troop choice, stern guard (taking an eliete) therefore, while counting as scoring, do not count as troops.
but, it would be funny to walk into a 750 pt game and say you had pedro and 2 sterngaurd squads

No, they are not troops, they are just Scoring Elites.

More just a mental exercise than anything else, as I don't use or own Pedro or any sternguard, but it sure looks like it would work to me.
Just to play this out for completeness, here are the two relevant rules:

SM codex pg 90, Hold The Line!:
If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units.

Rulebook pg 90 (that's a creepy coincidence), Scoring Units
An army's scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance.

"Scoring units" is a specific defined term. Replace "scoring units" in Pedro's rule with its definition from the book, and you get:

If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads come from its Troops allowance.

Codex overrides rulebook.

They don't become Troops (like Nobz with a Warboss), they just become Scoring.

No, you are mixing up the rules.
Just because all troops are scoring units does not make all scoring units troops.

your making it complicated for yourself here

Scoring units must be troop choices (troops with an AV are not scoring) - this is a universal rule to everyone.

the special rules in a codex can alter this and go against it somewhat.
the rule makes sterns able to score, but does not make them a troop choice.

Kaaihn wrote:If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads come from its Troops allowance.

This isn't right, though.

By default, all Troops choices that are not vehicles are scoring. Thus, for almost every army, their scoring units come from its Troops allowance.

However, Pedro Kantor has a special rule that allows Sternguard, an Elites choice, to become scoring. This means that, like Troops, they can claim objectives as well as contest them, but it does not mention altering which section of the Force Organization Chart that they occupy.

Thus, Sternguard are not Troops. They are Elites choices that are also scoring units.

MinMax wrote:Thus, Sternguard are not Troops. They are Elites choices that are also scoring units.

This does seem to be the obvious answer, but it requires you to not treatf "scoring units" as a defined term. If I read Hold The Line! and see that my sternguard are scoring units, and ask the question "whats a scoring unit?" The answer from the rulebook that would come back would be "units that come from the troops allowance". Oh, ok, so if Pedro is in my army, my sternguard come from my troops allowance, got it.

It's probably using the rules backwards to get there. Kept spinning through my mind on a boring day though.

lol, if you need a rule to cmopare it to the the ork warboss special rule is a good one.

he makes a single unit of nobz (elite choice) able to be troop choice.
the sterns only count as scoring, if they wanted them as troops then it would have said they are counted as troop choice (also making them a scoring unit)

Yeah, I wish it was that simple. Can't compare language from one codex to another though. I'm going with the assumption that defining them as coming from the troops allowance because they are scoring units is just using the mechanics of the rules backwards.

Kaaihn wrote:This does seem to be the obvious answer, but it requires you to not treatf "scoring units" as a defined term. If I read Hold The Line! and see that my sternguard are scoring units, and ask the question "whats a scoring unit?" The answer from the rulebook that would come back would be "units that come from the troops allowance". Oh, ok, so if Pedro is in my army, my sternguard come from my troops allowance, got it.

You've got it backwards, the line in the rulebook isn't saying that "All scoring units are Troops," it's saying that "All troops are scoring units" (Ignoring vehicles, naturally). From there it's basic logic, All troops are scoring does not imply that All scoring units are troops, so just because Sternguard become storing does not imply that they are troops as well.

Go read the section about a captain on a bike. If he is on it, then the bikes may be taken as a Troops choice, while Pedros just says counts as. It isnt that hard to ubderstand.

Please show me where in perdos rules it states he makes sterns a troop choice.

he can give them the ability to score, but he does not make them a troop choice.

the ability to score and being classed as troops are 2 very different things.
his rule only further proves this.

hence why all the stern lists also take 2 small units of scouts (not because they are much good, but because they are light on points)

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, you are mixing up the rules.
Just because all troops are scoring units does not make all scoring units troops.

This is the easiest way to explain it. It's a simple logic exercise, really. There's a specific name for it, but I don't know it off the top of my head, and seem to be too lazy to look it up.

Scoring Unit is the major group. Troops fall under that group by default. Pedro allows an Elites choice to fall under that group as well.

Kaaihn wrote:Yeah, I wish it was that simple. Can't compare language from one codex to another though. I'm going with the assumption that defining them as coming from the troops allowance because they are scoring units is just using the mechanics of the rules backwards.

Using mechanics of the rules, but backward, is technically breaking the rules.

All non-vehicle troops choices score.
Not all scoring units are Troops choices.

Just like
All space Marines have Toughness 4 or higher
Not all Toughness 5 or higher units are space marines.

see how it works?

Every peice of evidence and other examples points to them "just counting as scoring units"

you can't ignore the weight of evidence against you, comparing it to the Captains "makes bikes count as troops" or the Ork Warbosses' "let you take one unit of nobs as troops" whilst this one is worded specifically different.

Also you've got attribute and specification mixed up.

Units with the specification troops have the attribute scoring.

units with the attribute scoring are not always specified as troops

Why are there six posts telling me exactly what I said in my last post?

Kaaihn wrote:Why are there six posts telling me exactly what I said in my last post?

Because your last post was:

Kaaihn wrote:Yeah, I wish it was that simple. Can't compare language from one codex to another though. I'm going with the assumption that defining them as coming from the troops allowance because they are scoring units is just using the mechanics of the rules backwards.

Which is not the same as what everyone else is saying. You're inferring that you are able to field Sterngaurd as troops based on the assumption you've described above. This is incorrect and against the rules.

Becuase that post was confusingly worded and without the context of your newest post highlighting you've had a change of thought it was hard to understand what you were saying.