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As many know I have been working over the past month or so since I got my first .pdf of the guard book ( and subsequently purchased the real one) on trying to build a viable tourney list for the GT circuit this year. I have now finished 30 games against a small number of opponents playing a large number of hard tourney lists, proxied and otherwise with some interesting results. In particular my last 10 games were an attempt to determine how critical the PBS will be in my GT lists.

See this post for the lists, with PBS are various versions of the first list and without are using list number 2 from this Post: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240291.page

Here is the win loss record with PBS
Nob Bikers 3-0 ( PBS is a game changer here, just makes the Biker units a liability)

Mech Lash with Princes 3-1-1 ( PBS had very little role here and I would have been better served without it.)

Cairos Crusher Spam 3-0 ( PBS either made this an easy win, or failed and forced me to play Tag with the Crushers, still the fact that this was a 24 crusher list made it too easy for me to just run from the crushers as they needed to stay in Cairos sphere of awesome.

Mech Lash with Sorcerors and Land Raider 2-1 ( This was a better list not because of the Raider which was just a big melta target, but the switch from princes to sorcerors made the lash much more resilient. Still Lash is only of limited effectiveness against a fully mechanized list and guard die as soon as they fall out of their transport anyway so Lash does not change that much. )

Vulkan Marines 1-1-1 ( rough matchup in many ways its almost a mirror match with the auto twin linking helping to make up for the lower number of melta weapons, My Vendettas were my ace in the hole here with their mobility and long range helping to even the odds.)

Mech Eldar 0-1 ( I cant take too much from this game as neither me nor my opponent was familiar enough with the Eldar to know if it was valid, I just need to track down an experienced Eldar player in the Philly area to have more games against. )

Nidzilla 1-0 ( Vendettas make MCs cry! – Im going to have to put some kind of slogan like that on one of my Vendettas)

Mech Tau 1-0 ( Again I need a more experienced Tau player to get a better feel on this matchup, but I think it will be similar to the Vulkan Marines as a difficult matchup for Mech Vet.)

Without PBS
Nob Bikers 0-1 ( this is one matchup I found that PBS is simply crucial, without it Nob Bikers are a very tough, but not unwinnable matchup for MechVets)

Cairos Crusherspam 2-0 ( I was surprised to find that against a more balanced version of crusher spam 16 crushers and 2 rail tongues, that the Mech Vets actually performed better and did not even need the PBS, big surprise for me here )

Vulkan Marines 2-1-1 (the toughest matchup by far, god damn those blasted landspeeders!!!)

BT Landraider/Termi Spam 2-0 (easy slaughter, please bring more Landraiders)

Mech Tau 1-0 ( The lack of the PBS here simply changed my tactics a bit, but In the end having more firepower was slightly better, still a touch matchup for MechVet and very close game won by a single KP )

CONCLUSIONS.

Overall-

It seems to me that unless you run into an army using one of those very expensive ground pounding mega units that the PBS goes from being mandatory to just useful. The effectiveness of the MeltaVets both in Chims and in Valks just keeps looking good against anything that is not just massed ground pounding horde which I don’t see as a problem given the number of pie plates, multilasers and heavy flamers I have at my disposal.

My one concern is wondering if there is a better way to deal with opposing Mech Lists that work out to a near mirror match such as Mech Tau, Mech Vulkan, and other MechVet lists?

Is there a better way to give MechVets an edge in that matchup that does not hamstring us against all the other strong builds from other armies?

Unit Reviews:

Here are my feelings on the various units that I have tried in my multiple list incarnations. I have rated each unit as to how well it fits within a MechVet list, these ratings are not to be taken as an over all rating of the unit, only to how well it fits in a MechVet style army list. Here is an explanation of my ratings, then we go on to the units themselves.

MANDATORY = self explanatory, you must have this in your army if you want a solid MechVet list. IMHO of course
VERY GOOD = An excellent unit that will never let you down, but could be replaced in the list with another equally effective unit, or less effective unit that is cheaper.
GOOD = Does its job well for the cost but should only be taken over a very good unit if it is significantly cheaper.
AVERAGE = Nothing special, only worth including if it fills a role that none of your other units can fill due to cost constraints.


Metla CCS – Mandatory

This unit has just been kicking ass for me, I have used it both in the Valk Rider role and in the Mech role and honestly I am having a very hard time deciding. When in a valk they act as a cheap suicide squqd that almost guarantees a dead Land Raider or MC. When in a chim. The CCS stands ready to help with GBITF, FOMT, and BID for the rest of the chimera Phalanx while a pair of Vet Squads serve in the Meltacide squad role. In that case the vets are no where near as good as the CCS but the CCS is often overkill in the Meltacide role and robs me of the occasional ( in a mech army) utility of the orders.

Inquisitor+Mystics – Mandatory
32 points for a highly effective counter for deep striking meltas is just too good not to have.

Psyker Battle Squad – Very Good / Mandatory in a Nob Biker (or equivalent) heavy environment.

I have found these guys to be either vital or very sub par depending on my opponent. Against any of the fully Mechanized lists becoming more and more popular their utility falls dramatically. However against armies that use the Big Badass Unit of Doom, they are a Silver Bullet that almost never fails.

MeltaVets (Air Cav) – Very Good

These units are not as good as Air Cav CCS but they are more expendable as well as being a slight bit more survivable and mildly useful against enemy infantry simply due to the extra 6 BS4 lasguns and 5 extra wounds.

Melta Vets (Mech) – Very Good / Mandatory if no Air Cav Melta Vets

Statistically a dead vehicle per turn once they get close, in a full Mech list this is the heart and soul of your army.

Plasma Vets ( Mech) – Very Good

When working in support of your Melta Vets these guys are excellent. They are almost Mandatory in a high MEQ environment.

Las/Plas Vets (Mech) – Very Good
This is a Plasma Vet squad in a chimera with a lascannon. They are very very good at providing a mobile firebase for support of the chimera phalanx and at providing a localized counter to enemy transports. The squad can reliably pop a transport per turn so that the big guns can vaporize them. The only problem is expense as this puts them up to 190 points and digs my troop points allowance.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers – Average
They do make a very nice cheap scoring unit if you are trying to cram in more FA/HS choices but otherwise are just 50 wasted points. They do seem to make the army theme more reasonable by making the entire ValkDetta contingent into an Inquisitorial Detachment under separate and independent command of the Inquisitor. If I ever decide to paint up another trio of ValkDettas in Inquisitorial colors then this is the way I will go.

Infantry Platoon ( fully mechanized ) – Average
This is two Infantry Platoons with a flamer PCS all loaded up in chimeras. As much as I like the extra chimera this adds to the army I just keep coming back to the idea that two Melta Vets is a better deal here.

Infantry Platoon (Partially Mechanized, Partially Air Cav) – Very Good
This option is really starting to appeal to me, A mechanized flamer PCS with two naked infantry squads that ride in the Vendettas to make them Scoring. If I put my CCS in Chimeras this is the way I will run it I think as the Flamer PCS is awesome, especially as a way to support the Chimera Phalanx against enemy assaults as well as helping to clear objectives in the late game.

Valkyrie (Gunship w/Rocket Pods) – Mandatory
My Gunship Valkyrie is one of my favorite models I have ever owned, does a solid job against enemy troops and provides a fantastic platform for my Inquisitors Mystics. I will never leave home without one!!!

Vendetta – Mandatory
Come one, 130 points for 3 fast moving twin linked lascannons, do you really need to say anything else?

Demolisher with Plasma Sponsons – Very Good
My beloved Plasmolisher is just pure death on tracks. It kills anything and works just fine on the move. It also works great in squadron combo with a fully loaded Executioner.

Demolisher with Melta Sponsons – Good
Not as versatile as the Plasma Demolisher but obviously much more lethal against vehicles. It makes a terrifying anchor for the advance and works best going right at the enemy. I think this one is a bit redundant in an army with so many meltas though.

Demolisher, naked – Good
I have used a naked demolisher as a squadron mate for my fully loaded executioner a couple times and it was a good choice for a cheaper option. If I cant afford to fully armor out, this is my favorite choice as a squadron mate for any of my full power Tanks.

Leman Russ (Naked) – Good
Used in the same role as the Naked Demolisher it simply trades range for power kind of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other kind of thing. I think that the Demolisher works better as a squadron mate to an Executioner as it has closer synergy in range and preferred targets to a naked Russ. If used alone its nice but just not as terrifying as the Demolisher, and the main role my tanks serve is to keep the enemies attention away from my Chims. The Demolisher always serves that role better.

Vanquisher with Pask – Good (Redundant in standard high melta count list)
I tried this unit once in my Lumbering Blitzkrieg list and a unit of two is pretty effective in a list that runs less meltas but it’s only a stop gap measure to make up for the lack of meltas, not a replacement that works better than them.

Executioner (Naked) – Good
This is another option for a partner in a squadron with a sponsoned Executioner. The synergy is perfect of course, but its just so damned expensive you may as well just take a full Plasmolisher.

Executioner ( w/ Plasma Sponsons) – Mandatory
This is the one unit other than my Melta CCS that is just automatic in every list build I try. It just kills everything!!! I have lost count on the number of times it has laid waste to 4-5-6hundred point Uber units. And it is just as good clearing the board of whatever falls out of an enemy Mech lists transports after the ‘Dettas pop them. Even in games where it only ever got off a single shot the desperation with which my enemy focused fire on it made it worth its points by allowing the rest of the army to run rampant.

Hydra Flak Battery – Good
Maybe I just don’t know how to use this unit, but it has under performed for me every time I have tried it. Every time I missed the thing it replaced more than I would have missed the Hydras. Don’t get me wrong they do a workmanlike job, they are incredibly versatile and they are dirt cheap. Still I always feel like I am would rather have had another MeltaVet squad, another Valk/Detta or another Russ variant.

I have to say, this report seems spot on with my findings also. Especially the Executioner's continuously high performance marks.

Thanks, glad to hear that its not just me :-)

The Executioner just keeps on impressing me. I just wish I did not have to spring for a damn Forgeworld Turret to bring it to the Big Waagh.

Just like to check;

Your issuing orders from CCS in chimera to squads that have disembarked from thier own chimeras, right?

Razerous wrote:Just like to check;

Your issuing orders from CCS in chimera to squads that have disembarked from thier own chimeras, right?

Yes, thats why the orders dont get used much and I struggle on deciding between sending the CCS forward as meltacide squds. They do fine giving orders to themselves once they disembark from the 'Dettas.

The only orders I really miss are FOMT and GBITF. Auto Rally of a below half vet squad that got chewed up after thier Chim bought the farm has been handy on occasion. Thats why I am leaning towards buying them with Chims and then deploying them in Valks in the event I face something like RaiderSpam that would justify sending the CCS forward in an anti armor role at the expense of their orders.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm finding in my playtesting thus far as well. I'm less and less excited with the PBS, but I am keeping mine for now because the regular Orks player I get games with won't stop using his Nob Bikes.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the Valks/Dettas at this point because there is such a massive question mark over how they interact with numerous different sections of the rules. I've been playing with mine as they can't hold objectives that aren't within 2" of the hull (and most of the objectives we have are pretty small, so it rarely ever gets to hold one unless its in a building or something). I have been allowed to dismebark and embark regularly, though we're using the base as the footprint to do so. I'm considering Devildogs with Heavy Flamers and Smoke Launchers in place of my Vendettas, at which piont I'll get Chimeras for my other vet units (I'll likely keep one for the IQ though since he never gets in or out unless it esplodeds). Shep seems to be having good results with the Devildogs so far, so it is something to consider.

I've also been playing with my Executioner and one of my Demoishers in a Squadron lately, which seems like overkill but it literally kills anything it shoots in a given turn. combined with the IQ letting both tanks shoot whatever deepstrikes in the bubble, it is insane (if both shoot a unit of 8 Crushers when they drop, they average killing the entire unit with or without Kairos to protect them, its STUPID). I like having my Demolishers free though, so I've been considering working the points for a standard LRBT with plasma sponsons to accompany the Executioner in my army (I'm playing 1 Exec and 2 Demolishers, all with plasma sponsons).

Caffran9 wrote:This is pretty much exactly what I'm finding in my playtesting thus far as well. I'm less and less excited with the PBS, but I am keeping mine for now because the regular Orks player I get games with won't stop using his Nob Bikes.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the Valks/Dettas at this point because there is such a massive question mark over how they interact with numerous different sections of the rules. I've been playing with mine as they can't hold objectives that aren't within 2" of the hull (and most of the objectives we have are pretty small, so it rarely ever gets to hold one unless its in a building or something). I have been allowed to dismebark and embark regularly, though we're using the base as the footprint to do so. I'm considering Devildogs with Heavy Flamers and Smoke Launchers in place of my Vendettas, at which piont I'll get Chimeras for my other vet units (I'll likely keep one for the IQ though since he never gets in or out unless it esplodeds). Shep seems to be having good results with the Devildogs so far, so it is something to consider.

I've also been playing with my Executioner and one of my Demoishers in a Squadron lately, which seems like overkill but it literally kills anything it shoots in a given turn. combined with the IQ letting both tanks shoot whatever deepstrikes in the bubble, it is insane (if both shoot a unit of 8 Crushers when they drop, they average killing the entire unit with or without Kairos to protect them, its STUPID). I like having my Demolishers free though, so I've been considering working the points for a standard LRBT with plasma sponsons to accompany the Executioner in my army (I'm playing 1 Exec and 2 Demolishers, all with plasma sponsons).

The Valk/Detta question is a pain for sure, at the moment the only clear ruling we have is the one that will be used at the next indy GT event I am attending

Here is the ruling from the main judge from the Big Waaagh GT. While not GW or faq, this is a major tournament and does set a precedent.

1. Can the Valkyrie contest objectives/claim them if loaded with troops, since it is so high off the ground? If I put its base on the objective?
2. Can the Valkyrie still outflank with troops on board?
3. Can the Valkyrie embark/disembark troops as normal without having to deep strike (height problems b/c of base)?

1. Yes, treat the vehical as if it sits on the table for this purpose.
2. Yes, the vehical does not lose this special ablitity.
3. Yes, look at answer # 1

I do like the Devil Dogs, but im not sold on single shot BS3 weapons, I just know they will fail me at some critical juncture while in 30 games I have never had my Vendetta totally whiff out on me. And they just rock hard against MCs. And for once I have a model that I love the looks of that does not suck!!!

I agree on the Plasmolisher, Executioner squadron, especially with mixed with the mystics its just sick. I would love to be able to fit a third tank with sponsons in, but just have not been able to make it work for me so far. I have been playing them separate because that seems to be better in more games and still solid against mega units while the squadroned unit is definitely overkill against any MSU army.

Cant wait to see how the army does in the Big Waagh this July.

Oh it is massive overkill against MSU, and probably still not necessary against uber unit lists. I've been toying with it to try and protect my Executioner from Railtongues and the like, since I can allocate those single hits onto the Demolisher and keep the Exec firing away. Alternatively, if the str10 shot looks more exciting against whatever needs to die (rarely does 3 shots look better than 5 though) I can put the silly single shot damages on the Exec for a turn.

I would only really say that it is something to consider doing if you already have 3 Russes and are looking to add in a 4th. I'm likely going to step up to 4 russes when I drop the PBS from my army (I'm going to drop the PBS and a Vendetta to get another Exec or Demolisher and Chimera for one of my meltavet units).

Very good results, excellent really. I am very interested to see how this style of guard will fare at a big event. Have you played any games against the boyz other than no biker lists? I think it is a fore gone conclusion that PSB is the anthema versus nob bikers to be completely honest. I have been play testing my mono theme daemonic hordes versus mech IG and so far all games have been crushing victories. I really want to play outside my local area against a nationally ranked player to see how I fare. Local games are a great opportunity to play test but I think they tend to fall short against establishing consistent results that will shift the meta game. Personally I don't put much worth in the meta game but then again we can't simply ignore net lists as we will invariably see many of them across the table. I think guard is still truly untested up to this point in time.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Very good results, excellent really. I am very interested to see how this style of guard will fare at a big event. Have you played any games against the boyz other than no biker lists? I think it is a fore gone conclusion that PSB is the anthema versus nob bikers to be completely honest. I have been play testing my mono theme daemonic hordes versus mech IG and so far all games have been crushing victories. I really want to play outside my local area against a nationally ranked player to see how I fare. Local games are a great opportunity to play test but I think they tend to fall short against establishing consistent results that will shift the meta game. Personally I don't put much worth in the meta game but then again we can't simply ignore net lists as we will invariably see many of them across the table. I think guard is still truly untested up to this point in time.

G

I agree for certain, local games are always just good for practice and helping to identify weak points in the list but you never know until you play in an open tourney environment how well the army is.

I will be taking my Mech Vets to the Big Waagh in July and Mechanicon ( new indy GT november this year in Philly ) in November. I will also try it in Ard boyz although that list is so different that it will not really tell me anything about how the 1850 list will perform.

Im curious about your Mono list, is that the Mono Tzetch list you had mentioned previously or a Mono Khorne list? I know you want to keep the actual list close to the vest until you break it out but It would be interesting to know which mono theme is having such sucess against Mech IG. ( I have thought that MSU mono Tzeetch could be a solid threat ) I would imagine it should do just as well against most of the other Mech themed lists which would actually be nice to see as a balance against the trend to go mech.

I have not had a chance to test against a solid boyz based list as I dont have anyone close by who playes large ork lists. I need to post a request for some Philly Ork and Eldar players so we can set up some playtesting games here some time.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Very good results, excellent really. I am very interested to see how this style of guard will fare at a big event. Have you played any games against the boyz other than no biker lists? I think it is a fore gone conclusion that PSB is the anthema versus nob bikers to be completely honest. I have been play testing my mono theme daemonic hordes versus mech IG and so far all games have been crushing victories. I really want to play outside my local area against a nationally ranked player to see how I fare. Local games are a great opportunity to play test but I think they tend to fall short against establishing consistent results that will shift the meta game. Personally I don't put much worth in the meta game but then again we can't simply ignore net lists as we will invariably see many of them across the table. I think guard is still truly untested up to this point in time.

G

Agree with GBF. There are too many "ingrained" ideas in local areas that make it difficult to test everything 100%. You said so yourself that the Tau and Eldar matches weren't very good because you didn't have an experienced eldar/tau player. Aside from that, though, it looks like it matches up with what everybody else is finding. I think you're going to see a return/comeback of battlewagon or green tide orks to even the score a little bit. I'm not sure how demons can react to sucking plasmolisher/executioner shots every time they land, but everybody else looks like they will just mech up.

If anything this is a win for GW, because mechanized armies mean about double the cost of a footslogging army (unless you're playing orks.)

I think it will be good for the game to see a nice shake up and see some new lists. Like GBFs mono demon horde list which I am very curious to see, I hope GBF is planning to make it to The Big Waagh. I look forward to seeing how that army does against both the Mech lists and the Big Green tide as well.

Always fun to see new things so I think its a win for us, the players as well.

I will be at the Big Waaagh 4 SHO !!!



G

Sweet, ill see you there. Look for the big guy with the black cowboy hat :-)

great post big troy! thanks for it.

Two questions with two follow ups.

Were you ruling that mob rule can be used even for a morale test when under the effects of weaken resolve?

If not, would PBS still be required to have a favorable nob biker matchup?

How were you ruling the various RAW questions with the 'V' series stuff?

If a tourneys FAQ was released and ruled overly harsh on your gunships, what would you switch to?


On your mech eldar question. I think that is a tough match for IG. And i think a shooty tau army would be at best a 50/50 (provided the tau list was actually a good one. Lots of bad Tau lists running around these days )

thanks again for putting that up. Great data!

bigtmac68 wrote:Sweet, ill see you there. Look for the big guy with the black cowboy hat :-)

Gotcha! Looking forward to meeting ya.

: )

G

Shep wrote:great post big troy! thanks for it.

Two questions with two follow ups.

Were you ruling that mob rule can be used even for a morale test when under the effects of weaken resolve?

If not, would PBS still be required to have a favorable nob biker matchup?

How were you ruling the various RAW questions with the 'V' series stuff?

If a tourneys FAQ was released and ruled overly harsh on your gunships, what would you switch to?


On your mech eldar question. I think that is a tough match for IG. And i think a shooty tau army would be at best a 50/50 (provided the tau list was actually a good one. Lots of bad Tau lists running around these days )

thanks again for putting that up. Great data!

At the moment it does not look like I have to worry about it as the Indy GT cirucuit seems to be ruling that the Valks can be used as any other transport. ( see above ruling from The Big Waagh ) and INAT FAQ shows all indications of going the same way. So unless that changes dramatically I see no reason to worry about my beautiful Valks.

To be honest the Valkyrie model is the only reason I ever condisered playing guard at all so if they end up getting nerfed, I just sell the army on Ebay and go back to my Vulkan space marines. From a theoretical standpoint if the Valks were pulled i would just Go chimera spam plus tanks. Id rather have 3 more melta vets than a Devil Dog. But again since the Valks are the only reason I would ever have played IG I have not given that much thought.

The ruling on Weaken Resolve seems to be clear as well but if that were to change then I would definitely not worry about the PBS because Lootaz and Biker Nobz are the key reasons they are in the army.

Damn you guys! stop making me want to play guard!

Khornatedemon wrote:Damn you guys! stop making me want to play guard!

DO IT!


you won't.

Caffran9 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:Damn you guys! stop making me want to play guard!

DO IT!


you won't.

I'm considering it! I've wanted a traitor guard force ever since codex eye of terror

Thanks, nice short, readable review with good advice.

When are the new Russes due out?

"Inquisitor+Mystics – Mandatory
32 points for a highly effective counter for deep striking meltas is just too good not to have. "

Any thoughts on loading them out? I used to play with 3 HB, psycannon and 2 mystics and it was one of my favorite units.

Loading out the IQ/Mystics tends to simply make you pay lots of pionts for things that yu can get elsewhere i nthe army for cheaper. Sometimes I run mine with an Incinerator and a pair of Warriors with Flamers, but it isn't really worth it for the most part.

I have to wonder about that since in the tourney i just played this weekend he was basically a 32 pt observer. It would have been nice to give him something, maybe an inferno pistol and meltabombs so he can have some utility if your enemy runs no Deep Strikers.

Had not given it much thought until this weekend when I did wish he could be of SOME use.

Of coure this tourney was a freidnly tourney with very odd lists, and I had to run two mechanized infantry platoons since I dont have my melta gun bitz yet.

For your 2500 list, and if you can shoehorn it in earlier, an inquisitor lord with psycannon and a hood (maybe emperor's tarot), three inducted guardsmen with plasma, two mystics, and two sages is an incredibly effective unit in a chimera. You get your DS defense, you get lots of rapid fire miss rerolling with some no invuln saves, and great psychic/deepstrike defense. This also lets you pick up an assassin.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-tactica-army-list-archive.html

On employment makes assassins FTW!

I've had great luck with my culexus and callidus and can't decide which to use for ard.