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Hey guys,

I need a quick clarification (I searched the forums to no avail)

IG Heavy Weapons teams count as a one two-wound model instead of two separate models correct?
If so, then the HWT can only fire one weapon in a shooting phase
That means it can fire EITHER its heavy weapon OR its (ONE) lasgun, correct?

Take, for example, a standard IG infantry squad with 1 sergeant with laspistol/CCW, 7 guardsmen with lasguns, and one HWT with an autocannon.
In this example you could fire 1 laspistol, 7 lasguns, and one autocannon, or 1 laspistol and 8 lasguns, not 1 laspistol and 9 lasguns, correct?

I was thinking about this while assembling my shiny new HWT Squad, not that it would have any real application I could see (maybe something with First rank fire, second rank fire).

Thanks!

Each Heavy Weapons team is a single 2-wound model.

Yes, each Heavy Weapons team has a single Lasgun.

A standard Imperial Guard squad, with 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Weapon team and 7 regular Guardsmen can fire:

- 1 Las Pistol
- 7 Lasgun shots

And Either:

- 1 more Lasgun shot
- X Heavy Weapon shots

Yeah, true. I noticed this during the reshuffle. If you have a full guard squad with HWT, Special Weapon and Sergeant, they only actually get six lasgun shots.

Makes that related Order even more worthless!!!

:/

even more? worthless?

ArbitorIan wrote:Yeah, true. I noticed this during the reshuffle. If you have a full guard squad with HWT, Special Weapon and Sergeant, they only actually get six lasgun shots.

Makes that related Order even more worthless!!!

:/

Actually, no it doesn't, it makes the order balanced.

I don't know that the extra 3 lasgun shots you would get at 12" pushes it into imbalance... Maybe if you got an unlimited number of orders a turn or something.

Wehrkind wrote:I don't know that the extra 3 lasgun shots you would get at 12" pushes it into imbalance... Maybe if you got an unlimited number of orders a turn or something.

Extra 3? As said, in the new codex with a HWT you get:
1 Las Pistol
7x2= 14 Lasgun
1 Heavy

With orders that goes up to:
1 Las Pistol
7x3 = 21 Lasgun
1 Heavy

Old Codex was:
9x2= 18 Lasgun
1 Heavy

So in fact, what the order does is actually make it BETTER than the old Codex by 8 Lasgun and a Laspistol Shot. So it's actually 4 Extra shots compared to the old codex.

No, I meant lacking the extra 3 shots from the HW team's now inoperable lasgun doesn't really make FRFSRF any more "balanced" since the difference of 3 lasgun shots doesn't make much of a difference.

If your argument is that FRFSRF is overpowered in general, I don't really know that I disagree. I just don't think 3 lasgun shots more the less matter

No, I am saying FRFSRF is Balanced by the fact that you have lost the Sergeant Lasgun and the HWT Lasgun.

That's what I am saying too, only without the Sgt bit since it was only the HWT lasgun that was being referenced previously, which is to say 3 lasgun shots.

I dunno, even if 5 BS3, S3 AP- shots are the difference between balanced and broken, that is a fine line!

I never said it was broken, I said it was balanced. Just like how GW "Balanced" vanguard and "Balanced" LotD

But doesn't saying " FRFSRF is Balanced by the fact" mean that it would not be balanced without that fact? Or is there a tier between "balanced" and "broken" that I am missing? Perhaps just "overpowered?" I dunno.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying FRFSRF is Balanced by the fact that you have lost the Sergeant Lasgun and the HWT Lasgun.

If you take into account the fact that you need to pass an order on Leadership 8, and the fact that you have a limited number of orders, I think you'll find that, even with FRF!SRF!, most foot IG armies are putting out less firepower per squad than they used to.

FRF!SRF! is a weak order, and would still be a weak order if the extra two lasguns were available for squads. Far from being "balanced" the reduction of lasgun fire in infantry squads is one of the many reasons that successful IG armies are heavily mechanized. I believe orders were supposed to help keep infantry-based armies viable, but platoon-level orders are not strong enough to make forsaking a Chimera worthwhile.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying FRFSRF is Balanced by the fact that you have lost the Sergeant Lasgun and the HWT Lasgun.

But it's a special rule. Surely it's meant to give a slight advantage? Not to be broken, just advantageous.

4ed Squad (HW, SW, SGT) at 12" gets 16 Las shots (8 Lasguns) plus Heavy and Special.

5ed Squad (HWT, SW, SGT) at 12" gets 13 Las shots (6 Lasguns, 1 Laspistol) plus Heavy and Special = 3 shot disadvantage

5ed Squad (HWT, SW, SGT) with Orders at 12" gets 19 Las shots (6 Lasguns, 1 Laspistol) plus Heavy and Special = 3 shot advantage

So, guard squads are now at a disadvantage UNLESS they can pass a Ld test and potentially 'use up' an order? WITH the order, they have a three shot advantage. Over 12" and they're stuck with the disadvantage.

Assuming you pass 50% of LD tests, and are shooting within 12", Guard remain balanced. The loss of SGT and HWT lasguns evens out, and you have a 50/50 chance of having three more or three less shots.

However, because of the nature of the order system, only ONE fail of LD test puts the whole rest of the platoon in the 'disadvantage' bracket. And of course, if you fire over 12" you're stuck with the disadvantage too..

Doesn't sound balanced to me...

the advantage isn't seen unless your firing over 12" with FRFSRF.

4ed Squad (HW, SW, SGT) at +12" gets 8 Las shots (8 Lasguns) plus Heavy and Special.

5ed Squad (HWT, SW, SGT) at +12" gets 6 Las shots (6 Lasguns, 1 Laspistol) plus Heavy and Special = 2 shot disadvantage

5ed Squad (HWT, SW, SGT) with Orders at +12" gets 12 Las shots (6 Lasguns, 1 Laspistol) plus Heavy and Special = 4 shot advantage

Also 5ed squad could = 50man squad 5 heavy + 5 special weapons thats 95 shots at 12" or 60 above 12"

not forgeting you can give this to conscripts thats (on full squad) 150 shots at 12" or 100 shots over 12"

I think your problem is you want to gain an advantage while having all the toys.

Apologies - you're right, you CAN use it over 12". The point still stands that you have to gamble on a dice roll to get more/less shots, which is a much clunkier rule than just averaging it out, like in 4ed.

Combining squads allows you to gamble all on ONE dice roll, but the amount you gain or lose is the same. So you can reduce your 'gamble' to only one dice roll, at the expense of separate targetting etc...

Thats what Commissar and banners are for...

That's what VOXES are for. 5 points for a re-roll. With merged squads, you'd only need one vox in the whole unit.

if the HWT can only fire the heavy weapon or A single lasgun, why does it have 2 attacks? having 2 attacks would seem to mean that one fires the HW and one fires a lasgun?

alarmingrick wrote:if the HWT can only fire the heavy weapon or A single lasgun, why does it have 2 attacks? having 2 attacks would seem to mean that one fires the HW and one fires a lasgun?

Since when have close combat attacks dictated how a unit shoots (with the exception of Tyranids)? My Wolf Lord has 4 Attacks, can he fire 4 times? My Wolf Guard Have 2 Attacks, can they fire twice? What about Space Marine Seargents? They have two attacks, can I fire both my Combi Weapons in 1 turn?

Haha. Duel-wielding combi-meltas.

The heavy weapon team is just one more example of lazy rulemaking by GW. At the Boot Camp forums, someone suggested modeling a Guardsman firing a lasgun, with another helping him steady it, to point out the lunacy of it.

But, to further bolster what everybody else is saying, that heavy weapon team, though counting as two models, and being modeled with two models, can only shoot one weapon.

Of course, the upside is that a heavy weapon squad inside a Chimera can fire off all three heavy weapons.

As much as you make fun of it, there is actualy some 'realisum' behind it. Personel issued heavy weapons are generaly not issued an assault rifle as well. On top of that, the second person in a Heavy Weapon team is nessisary for the successful operation of the weapon. Really, you have the advantage that you can keep fireing the HW after loseing one guy, not the disadvantage of loseing one rifle.

If your fireing the HW squads' lasgun, your probibly moving (otherwise you'd use the heavy weapon). In that case, the guy who normaly operates the gun is to busy lugging the thing around to be of any assistance to the combat.

I'd be happy it's only 2 guys. Modern Heavy Weapons fire teams (for something the size of an autocannon) takes 3 guys.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I'd be happy it's only 2 guys. Modern Heavy Weapons fire teams (for something the size of an autocannon) takes 3 guys.

Clearly in the Grim Dark Future of the 41st millennium people eat moar spinach

Mars.Techpriest wrote:As much as you make fun of it, there is actualy some 'realisum' behind it. Personel issued heavy weapons are generaly not issued an assault rifle as well. On top of that, the second person in a Heavy Weapon team is nessisary for the successful operation of the weapon. Really, you have the advantage that you can keep fireing the HW after loseing one guy, not the disadvantage of loseing one rifle.

If your fireing the HW squads' lasgun, your probibly moving (otherwise you'd use the heavy weapon). In that case, the guy who normaly operates the gun is to busy lugging the thing around to be of any assistance to the combat.

I'd be happy it's only 2 guys. Modern Heavy Weapons fire teams (for something the size of an autocannon) takes 3 guys.

Oh, I'm not that mad at losing the Lasgun shot. I am far more irritated that a Heavy Weapon Team is a single, 2 wound T3 5+ save model. So, anything S6+ wipes out a two-man team. With a single "shot". Us Guard players have noticed this sudden, horrible drop in survivability for our heavy weapons squads, and are....well, TMK, they're disappearing.

That, your right, is anoying. It doesn't really mean much in an Infantry squad, but it does make HW squads suddenly good targets for S6 weapons. I was just countering this:

The heavy weapon team is just one more example of lazy rulemaking by GW. At the Boot Camp forums, someone suggested modeling a Guardsman firing a lasgun, with another helping him steady it, to point out the lunacy of it.

But, to further bolster what everybody else is saying, that heavy weapon team, though counting as two models, and being modeled with two models, can only shoot one weapon.

Tri wrote:the advantage isn't seen unless your firing over 12" with FRFSRF.

Even with your clarification I do not see much of an advantage. Those four shots more are usually only available for 1-2 squads, if and after all attached strings have been considered (and there are many such strings).

At the same time, all squads lose two shots (sergeant and heavy weapon), so at the end of the day it really is a wash.

I think your problem is you want to gain an advantage while having all the toys.

I think I would just prefer to have the option for my sergeants to be equipped with lasguns. Not plasma pistols, not power swords (although that can come in handy), not boltpistols. Lasguns.