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OK, got a new one, came up last night. How do Orders interact with Night Fight? Example, I want to issue Bring It Down to a squad, but BID requires my command squad to see the target to issue the order. But I can't check to see if I can see the target until I shoot. But once I shoot, I can't issue orders.

Check the exact wording. Do any of them say Line of Sight or do they say
that 'you have to be able to see'? I don't have the books with me now but that
could provide a clue.

It says visible. I don't think there is an exact RAW solution to this, so my argument would be you take the Night Fight Check for the Order, and use that from there including your shooting with the Command Squad. If you fail the NF, the order fails.

Vassakov wrote:It says visible. I don't think there is an exact RAW solution to this, so my argument would be you take the Night Fight Check for the Order, and use that from there including your shooting with the Command Squad. If you fail the NF, the order fails.

Correct, it's a new system and the playtesters probably didn't think of this (or they did and the GDs couldn't be stuffed fixing it) and yes, that's what I would use as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GDs=Game Designers

No i don't think you need to worry about "Night fighting" The rule is written for shooting. Orders are not.

Also note that all Night Fighting does is change the distance you can see to shoot the target since the orders are not shooting (they've no range, strength or AP values), they cannot be effected. (though you could get unlucky with unit FRFSRF roll 3 ones and not seeing the target but thats life)

Rank is spelt with an R First RANK, Fire!, Second RANK, Fire!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:No i don't think you need to worry about "Night fighting" The rule is written for shooting. Orders are not.

Also note that all Night Fighting does is change the distance to the target since the orders have no range, they cannot be effected. (though you could get unlucky with unit FWFSWF roll 3 ones and not seeing the target but thats life)

So basically just say; you didn't take it into account, so I don't care....i like it

my bad massive spelling error and typos galore (all fixed now)... but as i said Night fighting works with shooting; orders have no range and are in no way shooting so ignore night fighting.

Tri wrote:my bad massive spelling error and typos galore (all fixed now)... but as i said Night fighting works with shooting; orders have no range and are in no way shooting so ignore night fighting.

But the wording is "visible." The Night Fight rules read "after selecting a target, but before the unit fires." I would say that issuing an order counts as shooting in so far as they have to be able to see the enemy. If it was "within Line of Sight" then you'd be right, but the use of the word visible makes me think that NF rules do apply.

OK, so IF night fight rules apply, then basically IG officers cannot issue orders in any turn with night fight in effect. Reasoning being that once they have selected a target and rolled for night fight, they have to finish their shooting sequence before you can move to another unit. And once a unit has shot, it cannot issue orders.

don_mondo wrote:OK, so IF night fight rules apply, then basically IG officers cannot issue orders in any turn with night fight in effect. Reasoning being that once they have selected a target and rolled for night fight, they have to finish their shooting sequence before you can move to another unit. And once a unit has shot, it cannot issue orders.

This is one interpretation, personally I would go with my above statement but this doesn't really fit RAW. Where's Ghaz and Gwar! when you need them...?

I don't see what the stumbling point is here. Is there some controversy over whether the target unit has to be visible to the unit issuing the order or the whether it has to be visible to the firing unit? The reasoning that 'OMG, you can't stop to fire while issuing orders' would make the FRFSRF order completely useless because THE UNIT IS FIRING WHILE YOUR GIVING ORDERS!

You issue the FRFSRF order, you hopefully pass your command check, you select your target, you pause and say "Oh, wait, it's night fight, I need to determine night fight range," you roll that distance and compare it to the range between the firing unit and its target. If you roll too low, the shots get wasted, otherwise continue firing as normal. In any event, you would then continue issuing orders as normal.

The issue is whether Night Fighting is an issue to the Command Squads, as many of their orders (notably not FRF,SRF) state that the target unit must be visible to the Command Squad.

Vassakov wrote:The issue is whether Night Fighting is an issue to the Command Squads, as many of their orders (notably not FRF,SRF) state that the target unit must be visible to the Command Squad.

Nothing in the Night Fight rules says anything about line of sight or visibility. All it says is to stop and apply a few rules after selecting a target and before rolling to hit. Nowhere in those two paragraphs is any text about changing how line of sight works during those two turns. I'd quote the rules but I don't really want to type in two paragrahs of text to demonstrate the absence of some imaginary rules.

There is precendent of using Night Fight to see if something is 'visable' such as the Tau Etherial. However you are correct, it's not explicit.

Vassakov wrote:Where's Gwar! when you need them...?

HAAAAAAAAAI! I was sleeping

It's simple when you break it down. No they do not need to roll.

Night Fight rules SPECIFICALLY mention that they affect shooting, nothing else. Unless a Special Rule (such as the Tau thingamagiger or Searchlights) mentions it, you do not use it for ANYTHING else but shooting.

So yes, you can issue orders in a Night Fight no problem.

Gwar! wrote:

Vassakov wrote:Where's Gwar! when you need them...?

HAAAAAAAAAI! I was sleeping

It's simple when you break it down. No they do not need to roll.

Night Fight rules SPECIFICALLY mention that they affect shooting, nothing else. Unless a Special Rule (such as the Tau thingamagiger or Searchlights) mentions it, you do not use it for ANYTHING else but shooting.

So yes, you can issue orders in a Night Fight no problem.

/agree

Rolling to see is a shooting phase action. My experience in the military has been that I can see a target in the dark, but that doesn't mean I can hit with any accuracy, however, I was still ordered to fire!

Plus, not being able to see a squad doesn't prevent the commander from yelling really loudly.

Gwar! wrote:

Vassakov wrote:Where's Gwar! when you need them...?

HAAAAAAAAAI! I was sleeping

It's simple when you break it down. No they do not need to roll.

Night Fight rules SPECIFICALLY mention that they affect shooting, nothing else. Unless a Special Rule (such as the Tau thingamagiger or Searchlights) mentions it, you do not use it for ANYTHING else but shooting.

So yes, you can issue orders in a Night Fight no problem.

Yeah. this is what I'd go with as well. Also from my understanding, or how I've seen it played, you just need to be 12-24 inches away from your squad you're issuing orders to and you don't need LOS because they issue orders from and to vox casters. Or so how I imagine it.

Hum... 12 or 24" range, talk about short range radios.

I'll submit to the wisdom of Gwar! then. All you need to do is have LOS, Order away in the dark! (I don't know why that needs a !. Seems pretty normal for the IG.)

Kreedos wrote:
Yeah. this is what I'd go with as well. Also from my understanding, or how I've seen it played, you just need to be 12-24 inches away from your squad you're issuing orders to and you don't need LOS because they issue orders from and to vox casters. Or so how I imagine it.

He's talking about a specific order that requires the unit issuing the orders to be able to see the enemy unit to be fired on.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Hum... 12 or 24" range, talk about short range radios.

it's actually 6" and 12" but whos counting.

AffliKtion wrote:

Kreedos wrote:
Yeah. this is what I'd go with as well. Also from my understanding, or how I've seen it played, you just need to be 12-24 inches away from your squad you're issuing orders to and you don't need LOS because they issue orders from and to vox casters. Or so how I imagine it.

He's talking about a specific order that requires the unit issuing the orders to be able to see the enemy unit to be fired on.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Hum... 12 or 24" range, talk about short range radios.

it's actually 6" and 12" but whos counting.

<Nitpick> It's Actually 0" (Bastonne), 6"(PCS and Equiv), 12" (CCS and Equiv) and 24" (Creed)

Gwar! wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:

Kreedos wrote:
Yeah. this is what I'd go with as well. Also from my understanding, or how I've seen it played, you just need to be 12-24 inches away from your squad you're issuing orders to and you don't need LOS because they issue orders from and to vox casters. Or so how I imagine it.

He's talking about a specific order that requires the unit issuing the orders to be able to see the enemy unit to be fired on.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Hum... 12 or 24" range, talk about short range radios.

it's actually 6" and 12" but whos counting.

<Nitpick> It's Actually 0" (Bastonne), 6"(PCS and Equiv), 12" (CCS and Equiv) and 24" (Creed)

I hate you. <3