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I have heard over and over how great =][= allies are to the Imperial Guard, but that got me thinking, what about allies to the Space Marines?

I mean Space Marines are pretty competitive on their own, but there are some interesting combinations that may prove valuable.

Inquisitors with Mystics = A stand out unit on it's own, but I think is really lackluster in a SM force. I don't think Space Marines have the quality of shooting from a single unit to support the points you pay for the ability.

Librarians w/ Null Zone and Grey Knight Terminators = I think is the most effective combination of units, Deamon Units will just hate you for this, but there is also great potential against Nob Bikerz. Initiative is everything, but what makes them particularly well suited is the amount of Firepower they can have on a Deep Strike.

I never saw the resolotion to the Vulkan/Allies question, though there is much potential there.

As I sometimes play a deamonhunters force in a league I'll share some of my experiances:

When playing a full space marine gunline (3 las preds, a whole bunch of tac squads with razorbacks, and land speeders with Missile launchers & heavy bolters) I've often allied in a Inq lord with a pychic hood & 3 mystics. 6 Frag/krak missiles or 3 lascannon shots tend to ruin any deepstrikers day, plus the hood has unlimited range.

In my first indy GT I brought along a good number of scoring troops in allied stormtroopers. With the ability to get 2 BS4 Melta guns in a scoring unit for 70 points I was ready to play. The Tournament judges ruled that Vulkan's mastercrafting did not carry over to allies, but they were still fun. Them, or SOB are a great way to expand your number of scoring units if needed.

I've had grey knight terms join with a chaplain. For 20 points you can throw a pyscic hood on them and then when you have a big horde of terminators with rerolls multicharging you can do a lot of damage.

What limitations exist for SM alling with Inguisition.

I have never tapped this area of potential before.

I need to know simple things like FOC and/or point limitations; unit combination limitations; unit transport limitations; etc. etc.

If this is coverted clearly in the BGB I will not be offended if you simply refer me to a page number or two

No points limitations.

You can have up to 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, and 1 fast attack allied in.

Keep in mind that the HQ & troops don't count for your manditory picks needed on the FOC.

Also, some units, like the Assassins can only be taken if an Inquisitor is with the army. Because you can only take one elite choice you need to take an Inq Lord as an HQ choice if you want to ally in an Assassin.

All of the rules for allies are covered in either the codex daemonhunters or codex witchhunters book.

The limitations are in the daemon hunters and witch hunters books. You can take up to 1 hq, 2 troops, 1 elite, and 1 fast attack. There are additional restrictions, like you still have to have a legal native list before you add allies.

If I remember right RAW will give INQ weapons the vulkan ability. Vulkan does not replace an ability, he removes an ability if they have it, and grants his own. Funnily enough it does not require you to have the ability to gain the benefit. If a tourney says you can't do it, accept the fact that they are playing by house rules. Of course I could be entirely off base, but then again I'm not really a fan of SM special characters.

Mostly I've heard of taking sisters, because of the cheap power armor. There is of course the option of taking the DH inq with mystics, and sticking them in a LRC. That is a big field of defense, and the LRC can put some hurt down on most deep strikers.

As has been stated, Inq stormtroopers are a great way to get 2 mobile special weapons for really cheap. 2 melta/plasma guns in a rhino will only set you back 120 points. They don't have the stat line of marines, but they have an ok armor save and the all important BS 4. And if I recall correctly, the DH book has the old smoke launchers. Yes I know using the codex trumps rule book is a bit on the shady side, but DH rhinos cost more, and they don't even get smoke for free. Smoke that down grades to glances with the new chart is really quite good.

Mainly the biggest benefit for SM to take allies, is cheap special weapons and power armor. Inq tends to only pay for the part that matters, the BS 4 with special weapons. (and power armor on the sisters.) They don't pay for WS or T, because their units (other than GK) aren't meant for CC. Basicly what I am saying is don't take the GKs, you have enough T4 power armor, but do take the shooting and defensive (mystics and good hood) elements.

Other things to keep in mind:

Rhino's cost 50 points in DH & WH, without smoke launchers or searchlights

Chimeras cost 80 points without smoke launchers or searchlights

Though the INQ & INQ Lord can also take a land raider as a dedicated transport all the WH & DH dedicated transports have the rule that they can not be used by other squads except for the squad they are bought by.

Othere than the Sisters/Vulkan combo, there are some other nice tricks that I can think of.

All Sisters units are Ld 9 with a Vet, who can take a Book of St Lucius for 5 points, allowing every nearby unit to use their leadership 9 unmodified for checks. Basically all of your marines can become stubborn thereby. A cannoness makes it Ld 10.

Seraphim are a really handy unit for tying up assault squads for a turn then hit and running away so they can be shot to death on your turn. They also add +1 to the morale of all allied units nearby, so your marines become Ld 10 essentially.

Dominions can pack a bunch of flamers or meltas into rhino or immolator for mobile burn/melting, but this is obviously better with Vulkan. Still, it is a difficult role to fill with marines.

Death cult assassins are a very cheap yet effective counter charge unit to keep hanging around if you run a more static army that needs it. Of course all assassins will require an Inq. Lord, but you get 3 DCs for one slot.

I don't really recommend the big assassins as they seem really overpriced in 5th. They can be fun though.

Personally, I like the Elite WH Inquistor with two HB Servitors, Plasma cannon and two sages for a small heavy weapons squad with a reroll on BS4 on the cheap. Alternate versions are making it a DH inquisitor with a Psycannon for extra shooting, or make it a lord with some a psychic hood and some mystics.

Lately I have been playing with Hammer of Witches in Apoc, and it is kind of nice. It's a psychic power that mades 1d6 enemy psykers take a Ld check or suffer Perils. Not universally useful, but if you play Eldar, CSM or the new guard especially, I see it being very nice.

GKs, I only really like the Inquisitors, and sometimes GK Terminators. All in all though, I tend to agree that the Marine terminators with TH/SS are better for most purposes.

Am i misreading my WH Codex.....My copy, bought from my local GW many years ago states (as i read it) that if you take SoB then Space marines are not an option as an ally and vice versa.......Still there are other options in the codex....i hope i have been misunderstanding this rule....

No, you can't take Inducted Space Marines in a WH army if the army contains Sob. You can however take Sisters of Battle in a Space Marine army as allies.

It is a really stupid and overly complicated rule.

Yeah which is why its slowed.

There's one problem with taking GK's and SM's, it's illegal! You can only take SM's with DH's if there aren't any GK's, something about them being a "secret" chapter.

MC

Although you can't have SoBs with SM you can get an Inquisitor. And all those beeatiful assasins that come with them. And orbital bombardment, and storm troopers.

Also storm troopers are suprisingly useful (in small squads) as they can be troop firebases that go mainly unnoticed while your space marines fight.

extermikator wrote:There's one problem with taking GK's and SM's, it's illegal! You can only take SM's with DH's if there aren't any GK's, something about them being a "secret" chapter.

This actually depends on which force is your "main" army.

A DH army with GK's may not use allied SM's (in every case, this rule specifies allied Space Marines, which is very important).

A SM army that is using DH's as allies MAY use GK's (in no way does the section on "using DH as allies for other Imperial Armies" specify that GK's and SM's may not be in the same army).

Sisters of battle make a good cheap troop choice for Space Marine armies. 110 points for ten without any special weapons brought. I replaced my five man scout squad with one and it seems to go good. They also can go up to 20 models, large scoring units always seem to be good.

n0t_u wrote:Sisters of battle make a good cheap troop choice for Space Marine armies. 110 points for ten without any special weapons brought. I replaced my five man scout squad with one and it seems to go good. They also can go up to 20 models, large scoring units always seem to be good.

I would rather split up my squads to divert incoming firepower, having one big troop choice is akin to putting all your eggs in one basket.

I think units like the IQ/2x Mystic setup are so appealing to the new I codex because you can setup a unit to put down such a staggering amount of firepower on its own that it really capitalizes on the effect (a single Executioner with Plasma sponsons slings 5 Plasma Cannons at anything that falls within the bubble... and when it lands it is still grouped together. Chances are very high that the overwhelming majority of models in the unit will die to this... I play an Executioner and Demolisher with PC sponsons in asquadron and it literally kills anything that falls in the bubble as soon as it hits the table).

That said, they look less appealing for an army like Space Marines because the shocking damage output from a signle unit doesn't exist in such a simple and easy fashion.

Caffran9 wrote:I think units like the IQ/2x Mystic setup are so appealing to the new I codex because you can setup a unit to put down such a staggering amount of firepower on its own that it really capitalizes on the effect (a single Executioner with Plasma sponsons slings 5 Plasma Cannons at anything that falls within the bubble... and when it lands it is still grouped together. Chances are very high that the overwhelming majority of models in the unit will die to this... I play an Executioner and Demolisher with PC sponsons in asquadron and it literally kills anything that falls in the bubble as soon as it hits the table).

That said, they look less appealing for an army like Space Marines because the shocking damage output from a signle unit doesn't exist in such a simple and easy fashion.

Lysander + Sternguard/Tactical Terminators with 2 Cyclones.

/\/\/\ solid output, but not quite 7 plasma cannons and a demolisher cannon solid

You're also probably not putting Lysander in the optimal unit in order to take advantage of that, though you can just stick him with the unit if you know you're playing against Deepstrikers. I actually kind of like that.

To me though, the IQ is all about denying threats. In the IG list it is supreme for denying people who try and deepstrike meltas or other ugly things that threaten the tanks. I guess it works along a similar vein for Marines, you just really have to have 1 unit that can, the vast majority of the time, kill whatever it takes its free shots at (otherwise it'll still be in a dangerous area and able to have drastic effect on the game).

A vindicator makes a good buddy for a DH Inq with Mystics. It isn't as overwhelming as what the IG can put out, but a str10 ap2 pieplate is still worth tagging a drop pod's worth of marines or termies with.
For daemon defense, generally a large tac squad or devastator squad works well. An extra round of the humble bolter will rock bloodletters, horrors and daemonettes pretty darn well.

If you use vehicles from the FW Imperial Armor 2 Update, you get access to the 'few points, same rules' Rhinos and Chimeras for your inquisitorian allies.

Grey Knights, the basic troop unit, is an interesting addition. I played at a recent RTT, lost to the winner in round 2, but he had 2 units of GKs allied to his BT force. The GKs hung out on his objective. They have good range, are Fearless (so no worries about failing a break test and running off the board), and with the Shroud are hard to target. And they're dead-hard in melee at WS 5 and Str 6. And the Aegis is a nice little bonus.

Also, the Grandmaster is possibly the baddest mofo HQ in the game (at least, for the points). Don't forget his Leadership 10 unlimited range Psychic Hood at home! I remember in Fourth Edition, the fits of my Eldar opponent as he tried unsuccessfully for about 4 rounds to Mind War the Grandmaster.

Grey Knights are a wicked addition to a SM force. And can use SM transports now too. But, they suffer from the syndrome of being more elite, and more points than a standard SM, so you have ever fewer models on the board.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Sisters of battle make a good cheap troop choice for Space Marine armies. 110 points for ten without any special weapons brought. I replaced my five man scout squad with one and it seems to go good. They also can go up to 20 models, large scoring units always seem to be good.

I would rather split up my squads to divert incoming firepower, having one big troop choice is akin to putting all your eggs in one basket.

Well you can only have two anyway so that leaves a lot of troops to split up. Same BS as SM but for a fair bit less points, also allows massed bolter fire. Of course I verse hoard armies mostly it works for me, but probably won't work against bigger threats. Still more bullets to kill stuff with

The whole point they had for my army was the same as the scouts: cheap and puts more infantry onto the board. Basically needed a replacement for my horrible sniper squad, sure they're great at times. But, like I said I verse hoards mostly and snipers seem to be crappy at handeling outflanking Genestealers with amazing luck. I'm not arguing with you what you said is good and what I usually go with anyway.

Standard PAGK's have pretty good (if expensive) synergy with mech marines.

As the transports move forward the GK's can move with them and still fire at full effect, but are difficult to target in return thanks to aegis. DS units or infantry attempting to blow the transports in CC can be counter charged by the knights.