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So this is what I have so far. Basically, I have nothing assembled, but have 2x Tac Squad and 2x Rhino are sitting on my desk. Really what I am hoping to get suggestions on is the filler (after Tac Squads), which comes to 520 points and has to include a HQ. Should I get some Heavy or Elites choices? I need to pick a Headquarters, sure, but I need an effective way to deliver him. Thoughts?

HQ
Chaplain 135
Jump Pack, Combi-Melta, Meltabombs

Troops
10x Tactical Marines 240
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer
Rhino

10x Tactical Marines 240
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer
Rhino

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Tornado 140
2x Multi-Melta, 2x Heavy Flamer

10x Assault marines 245
2x Flamer, Dual Lightning Claws, Meltabombs

TOTAL 1000

I think you could benifit from some light vehicle kill.

Dakka Predators would be nice.

Your tac squads points are off. They should be 245.

Land Speeder Typhoons are where it's at in this edition, but tornadoes are still a solid choice. Also, split them up, yes its another kill point, but one heavy bolter or assault cannon shot can drop the entire, expensive squad.

The multi melta/heavy flamer combo is no dice these days as it can only move 6" to fire both. Just go with the multi melta and keep them cheap and speedy.

Drop the L.Claws on the assault squad sarge, just give him a fist. It is all around more effective. You need it for MC's, tanks, ets.

The chaplain is a good choice for your army, but you may want to consider Vulkan to make all of those flamers and m.meltas twinlinked. It makes a really big difference.

That would be my suggestions, then take a squad of t.hammer termies to roll with vulkan, toss them in a LR and you have yourself a pretty solid army.

Vulkan + TH/SS Terminators + Landraider is my plan at 1500+. The lightning claws were really for no good reason at all, other than to convert something unique. In that squad, is the Chaplain better off with a flamer? Likewise, should the Tac Squads go all melta?

My mistake on the points, let me re-jig it:

HQ
Chaplain 135
Jump Pack, Combi-Melta, Meltabombs

Troops
10x Tactical Marines 245
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer
Rhino

10x Tactical Marines 245
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer
Rhino

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Tornado 140
2x Multi-Melta, 2x Heavy Flamer

10x Assault marines 235
2x Flamer, Sergeant w/ Powerfist

TOTAL 1000

The combi flamer or combi melta is a good choice for the chappy. It just depend son what you see that squad going after.

The L.Claws are good, especially with chappy in tow, but if you get caught in combat with a walker or a MC, you will be happy you have the fist.

I would say go combi melta on the tac squads, although it is a tough choice. The combi flamer gives you the versatility to take on any target, but I am always in favor of specialization over generalization. You may even want to give one squad a flamer and combi flamer and the other a melts and combi melta.

I still vote to drop the m.melta/h.flamer tornados. Typhoons would just be so much better, IMO. You may have better luck with that combo though, but in my experience 2 missiles on a 12" move and shoot platform with a heavy bolter gives you a lot more versatility and survivability than the suicide land speeders that fly up, shoot one thing, then die. The typhoon skirmishes at maximum range and I have found them to be really useful, but again, that is just my opinion.

If you toss in Vulkan with some termies in a LR (which is 640 points, takes you over 1500, I would drop the chappy to fit it), you will have a nice list. Mobile, shooty and assaulty. The only downside is lack of long range anti-armor punch, but again, typhoons help to bridge that gap. Two of them is 180 and that is 4 move and shoot missiles a turn, which is great firepower.

Once last suggestion to consider: Taking a razorback instead of a Rhino on one tac squad. Have the Heavy weapon 5 man group sit on your objective, and the sarge and special weapon drive forward in the razorback. It works well and for 5 points you get a move and shoot, twin linked h.bolter.

Good luck with it.

Reecius wrote:The multi melta/heavy flamer combo is no dice these days as it can only move 6" to fire both. Just go with the multi melta and keep them cheap and speedy.

I have to disagree vehemently with this. Yes, it's true that when you go over 6" you can't fire both, but who cares? The two guns are fired at vastly different targets. Why does it matter that you can't fire your multimelta at infantry? What are you going to do, fry one more guy? Or not being able to fire the Heavy Flamer at vehicles, when it can't hurt most of the ones you'll be shooting at anyway? The whole point of having both is so that you can threaten everything your opponent brings. If you just take multimeltas then Horde / Foot armies will just ignore them and laugh as you spend 60 points to kill 1/2 of a model a turn. Similarly, if you just take the Heavy Flamer then Mech armies will laugh that you spent 60 points to do nothing the whole game.

BUT, if you take both, then for just 10 points more you scare the crap out of both armies. The MM/HF speeder is easily one of the most powerful and points efficient units available to the Space Marines. It scares pretty much every army (and absolutely Terrifies some), while being fast and extremely cheap. Ever since starting to use them, I have never once been disappointed by them. Sure, sometimes they die early, but if so, then that means the opponent spent shots on them that weren't directed at the rest of my army, so I'm okay with that.

As for the Typhoons, sure you can take them and then you have Missiles, but really, what good are Krak missiles against actual mech? Yes, you can break open rhinos and other AV11 or lower stuff pretty easily, and do a decent job against AV12, but you could do the same thing with a Dakka Pred. So you can pay 90 Points for a vehicle with Armor 10 and 2 missile shots, or 85 Points for a vehicle with Armor 13, an Autocannon, and 2 Heavy Bolters that can just sit at range and nuke stuff.

How about putting your chaplain in terminator armor and running it with your assault marines.

I might be wrong on this, but to my understanding this would let you reroll to hit due to the chaplins perfered enemy, and reroll to wound due to the lightning claws special rule.

Thanks for the advise, that is all in the vein of what I have read about the MM/HF Landspeeders being THE must-have unit in 5ed Space Marine lists. That along with the two tactical squads in Rhinos is to form the basis for an (eventual) Mechanized Vulkan list.

Basically I want to try them out while I take some time to sort out the other units coming in for 1500+ points (Terminators, Land Raider Redeemer, Vindicators). Give me a chance to get a good feel for how the 'core' of the army performs before I make a set decision on what support it needs.

So, my difficulty is making a 1000 points legal list. The only logical choice I saw, for a squad + HQ combo were assault marines and chaplain, although I could also try another Tactical Squad with a Librarian, for example.

Edit to Kreedos: How will putting him in Terminator Armour benefit him when joining an assault marine squad. Do you mean I should remove jump packs and mechanize them?

I have to disagree vehemently with this.

Vehemently? Haha, what are we talking about here, civil rights?

But all teasing aside, I see your point, but they are still a one shot wonder. They fly up, shoot something, then die. They are large models that with true LOS, are difficult to hide. If they are a high target priority for your opponent, they are very easily blasted before they do anything. You can deepstrike them, sure, but that is a gamble. Bad reserve rolls or an unlucky deepstrike which is easy with a large model that must land close to its target to do anything, and those are points wasted.They are useful but a far cry from the must have space marine unit in 5th, IMO.

Typhoons are on board all game, and can easily maneuver for a side armor shot. What good are 4 krak missiles you ask? Math says: very good! Against an armor 12 vehicle you average 3 hits, 1 pen and a glance. Two Predator destructors average 3 hits, 1 glance or pin. A Tornado averages none unless it flies up to within 12" which will take at least a game turn and be exposed to return fire. In that amount of time the typhoons will fire at least twice from 4 feet away.

Then you say, but, but, destructors and a tornado H.flamer are better against hordes! And I say, marginally. 4 blast templates and 2 heavy bolters will give very comparable damage output and they can do this on the move at a safe distance whereas a destructor is static and a tornado must, again, drive right up to its target.

The clincher for me in gong with a typhoon over a tornado though, is the greater survivability of the typhoon. It hovers outside of most units range shooting many times over the course of a game. A tornado with M.Melta and H.FLamer gets one salvo off in most cases, sometimes getting none or two if you are lucky.

If you want a reliable tank killer that also serves well as an infantry fighter, you are better off with attack bikes. They are cheaper, smaller and thus easier to hide, and can lock things in combat you don't want shooting or moving, plus they are more survivable with two wounds and the option to turbo boost.

But, as always, YMMV. Try both, see what works best for you. In this list specifically, you lack any long range punch, and that is definitely a weakness. A LR would help mitigate that as would Typhoons.

Fearspect wrote:
Edit to Kreedos: How will putting him in Terminator Armour benefit him when joining an assault marine squad. Do you mean I should remove jump packs and mechanize them?

Haha it would benefit him because I'm an idiot, and for some reason I thought those were assault terminators and not assault marines.

Just pretend I didn't say anything haha.

Reecius wrote:Then you say, but, but, destructors and a tornado H.flamer are better against hordes! And I say, marginally. 4 blast templates and 2 heavy bolters will give very comparable damage output and they can do this on the move at a safe distance whereas a destructor is static and a tornado must, again, drive right up to its target.

Sure, if the blast + heavy bolter shots will do about the same number of wounds, but since you are firing from 36" away, the target will have cover approximately 100% of the time. So while you do the same number of wounds, I actually kill twice as many because my Heavy Flamer ignores cover, while your shots give them a 4+ cover save.

Reecius wrote:The clincher for me in gong with a typhoon over a tornado though, is the greater survivability of the typhoon. It hovers outside of most units range shooting many times over the course of a game. A tornado with M.Melta and H.FLamer gets one salvo off in most cases, sometimes getting none or two if you are lucky.

Maybe you play against a vastly different set of armies than I do, but most of the people I play against would have no problem getting in range to shoot even a Typhoon. If you are using the Heavy Bolters, then you are at most 36" away. Most mech armies can move 12" and then have at least 24" guns, and all it really takes to drag down a landspeeder is a strong wind. I think it's folly to really thing any variant of the landspeeder is "survivable," the only way it'll survive is if it's such a weak threat that your opponent just ignores it all game because it's not going to do anything.

This is all about synergy with the rest of your army. Sure, if you just take Tornado's as your big threats and everything else is hanging out on your side of the board in a gunline, then they are going to move up, get one (or less) salvo's off, and then die. But if you've got 2-4 MM/HF Speeders, a couple rhinos with tac squads, maybe some dreadnoughts all bearing down on the opponent at max speed, they now have a tough choice to make. Do they focus the fire on the relatively easy to kill landspeeders, drag them down, and then get chewed up by the dreadnoughts? Or do they focus more fire on the dreads and leave your speeders to get a 2nd shot off (which as even you will admit is extremely dangerous).

Reecius wrote:If you want a reliable tank killer that also serves well as an infantry fighter, you are better off with attack bikes. They are cheaper, smaller and thus easier to hide, and can lock things in combat you don't want shooting or moving, plus they are more survivable with two wounds and the option to turbo boost.

Yes, they are easier to hide, but they are also easier to kill, and they can only do one role or the other. I'm not saying attack bikes are bad, but consider the difference: Both are going to be boosting up into your opponents face, but against infantry the MM attack bike will have 2 TL Bolter shots and 1 MM shot, that's a far cry from a heavy flamer. The other thing is that while you can hide by engaging something in combat, your opponent can do the same. If they don't want you to shoot, they can just assault you with something random, and keep you stuck around for a while, since you really are pretty poor in CC. Also, they become bait for stuff like lascannons and Krak missiles, as each wound instant kills a whole bike. Lastly, one of the benefits of the in-your-face landspeeder that I've forgotten to mention until now is it's ability to block movement. First turn you can go Flat out right into your opponents lines and really screw with where they can move their army, which is invaluable if used correctly. That turn you have a 3+ save against shooting, and then the next turn you can unleash your firepower. Even if you die right away, you have now slowed your opponents movement for a turn AND done a good amount of damage.

Speeders get a 4+ cover save, not a 3+. It's bikes that get the 3+, and where are you getting your list building ideas? It sounds like you are just cutting and pasting stuff from Stelek, who by the way, never wins tournaments, has gotten beaten by anyone on Dakka that has ever called him out (and that he hasn't ducked the challenge), and has said that Tau are the best army in 5th ed. But I digress, that guy gets too much billing as it is.

Anyway, I don't feel like getting into a pissing contest. I see your point that the MM/HF speeder has a place in an army, and I agree that for 10 points, it will be worth while to give the speeder both weapons. But I feel that the typhoon will still give you more bang for you buck, but that is just me. Like I said, the OP should try both and see which one is the better fit for his army. In my experience, my Typhoons survive the entire game. They just hover back at maximum range firing away. I love them. The MM/HF variant for me just flies up, shoots once, then dies, but perhaps I lack the tactical acumen to see that they are the wonder unit of 5th ed, which I highly doubt.

And quite frankly, in all of my competitive Marine builds, I don't take ANY speeders! I think they are fun and a sweet model, but there are better choices in a marine list to give you the consistent win.

Just my 2 cents.

Reecius wrote:Speeders get a 4+ cover save, not a 3+. It's bikes that get the 3+, and where are you getting your list building ideas? It sounds like you are just cutting and pasting stuff from Stelek, who by the way, never wins tournaments, has gotten beaten by anyone on Dakka that has ever called him out (and that he hasn't ducked the challenge), and has said that Tau are the best army in 5th ed. But I digress, that guy gets too much billing as it is.

I would have sworn that the Flat Out rule gives a fast skimmer a 3+ cover save for that turn, but maybe it's reading fail on my part.

I read a lot of different information for ideas on list building, yes Stelek is one of them, but I also read here (obviously) and Warseer. More importantly, I also play as many games as I can with different units, and my thoughts on the MM/HF speeders are more from that experience than anything else. I agree you should try it out and see what fits your army / play style, my initial disagreement was with taking off the Heavy Flamers from the Tornados, and I stand by that.

If Typhoons do actually work that well for you, maybe my assessment of them is off base, I'll have to give a couple a try, though I think it will be tough given the couple SM armies I have at the moment are very much "In your face" lists and so a "Stand at range and shoot" unit probably won't fit too well in them, but it could be.

You are correct, it depends on the list and the synergy in that list. I can definitely see how having 6 to 8 targets in your face all with multi meltas will increase the survivability of each unit due to target saturation.

But yeah, give the Typhoon a try, you may be pleasantly surprised. I will try out spamming some of these speeders, and I may be pleasantly surprised myself. Maybe I have been using them incorrectly. I just never seem to have any luck with them. They seem to die before they reach their target, or right after. For the same role, I have always preferred MM attack bikes, or Typhoons which feel like they have a lot more endurance for me.

And sorry for the stelek comment, that was a bit of a low blow.

I have been reading his blog lately also, but there are some points on which I disagree with his assesment of the game. I think that his 'Best of 1500 pts Space Marines' does not look very great at all, and he is not a fan at all of Vulkan, who I am going to build into my higher points forces (just not worth it at 1000), so you can understand the Flamer/Melta spam.

Thank you for the advise, I won't be bothering with a 1000 points stop for now, as 5x Terminators and a LRR will easily round out the list I am planning and add 500 points anyway.

Good luck with it, I think the list you have with the termies will be very effective and a lot of fun to play.