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Okay so I've heard that a Chaos Daemon army going up against the new guard with two officers of the fleet will be pretty gimped.

Say this happens to you in a game/tourney etc. How would you organise your daemonic assault division? Also how might Chaos Daemon armies be built to weather this disadvantage?

Has anybody actually fielded daemons against such an army? I'd love to hear how it went.

A lot of this depends on what your daemon army looks like and what the mission is? What type of daemon list do you usually field.

If it's an objectives mission you simply hold all your troops in reserves most of them won't come in until turn 5 and if they are plague bearers it'll be good luck on your opponents part to kill them in 1-2 turns. A lot of these games will end in ties.

KP will be a bit rougher. Usually you will want to overload your first wave either with stuff that is very hard to kill or all of your very killy stuff. This especially hurts daemon armies without a lot of shooting because you could theoretically have units that never contribute to the game. A good thing might be to hold all shooty units in reserve and start with all of your assaulters on the table.

I think you've got to pray you get the wave you want, and frontload the crap out of your first rush with minimal troop squads making up the bulk of your second wave.

First Wave:
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder
Bigbadthing
Bigbadthing

Second Wave:
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops

Play the refused flank, pray that your first wave is big and bad enough to deal with your enemy, and slowly plunk troops onto objectives as the rest of your army trickles in.

sourclams wrote:I think you've got to pray you get the wave you want, and frontload the crap out of your first rush with minimal troop squads making up the bulk of your second wave.

First Wave:
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder
Soulgrinder
Bigbadthing
Bigbadthing

Second Wave:
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops
Mintroops

Play the refused flank, pray that your first wave is big and bad enough to deal with your enemy, and slowly plunk troops onto objectives as the rest of your army trickles in.

You are pretty well boned if your first wave doesn't come in then. Wouldn't it be better to go a little more even?

Evening out turns losing 1/3 of the time into losing 6/6 of the time, in my opinion. I mean seriously, if you deploy 1,000 points on the board, the IG player should be able to kill at least 500-700 in the first turn. Then 200 pts trickles in for the next 5 turns and you just play to see if you can contest an objective or something.... Whee?

I think it's a GoForBroke scenario: Do anything you can to get 1350+ points on the table, try to minimize your exposure while carving up a flank, and hump objectives and terrain all you can.

sourclams wrote:Evening out turns losing 1/3 of the time into losing 6/6 of the time, in my opinion. I mean seriously, if you deploy 1,000 points on the board, the IG player should be able to kill at least 500-700 in the first turn. Then 200 pts trickles in for the next 5 turns and you just play to see if you can contest an objective or something.... Whee?

I think it's a GoForBroke scenario: Do anything you can to get 1350+ points on the table, try to minimize your exposure while carving up a flank, and hump objectives and terrain all you can.

Well lets use a more specific example with a Khorne themed army list:

BT

4 Crushers

3x 8 Letters

1 Grinder
2 DP's

I guess to front load would be:
BT, Grinder, 2 DP's and Crushers

Where as to split would still give you:
BT, Crushers, Grinder, 1x Letters and
2x DP's, 2x Letters

I guess in the above army list though, you really are screwed and you have to front load...

That seems like your only hope. Drop in everything and try to take it and survive. If you want this to work, you want to consider having an odd number of units, so that you can drop more units in on turn one.

Warmaster wrote:
If it's an objectives mission you simply hold all your troops in reserves most of them won't come in until turn 5 and if they are plague bearers it'll be good luck on your opponents part to kill them in 1-2 turns. A lot of these games will end in ties.

Its a popular misconception that most of what you have in reserve will arrive on turn 5 if your opponent is running two Officers of the Fleet. If my math is correct and if you've split your army points 50/50, statistically you get the following distribution:

turn 1: 1/2 of your army shows up.
turn 2: 1/12 of your army shows up (1/2 left * 1/6 chance of arriving).
turn 3: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/12 left * 1/3 chance of arriving).
turn 4: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/18 left * 1/2 chance of arriving).
turn 5: 5/36 of your army shows up (remaining 5/36 arrives automatically).

As you can see, its a trickle after turn 1.

Edit: Added clarification that two officers of the fleet are present in opposing army.

kadun wrote:

Warmaster wrote:
If it's an objectives mission you simply hold all your troops in reserves most of them won't come in until turn 5 and if they are plague bearers it'll be good luck on your opponents part to kill them in 1-2 turns. A lot of these games will end in ties.

Its a popular misconception that most of what you have in reserve will arrive on turn 5. If my math is correct and if you've split your army points 50/50, statistically you get the following distribution:

turn 1: 1/2 of your army shows up.
turn 2: 1/12 of your army shows up (1/2 left * 1/6 chance of arriving).
turn 3: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/12 left * 1/3 chance of arriving).
turn 4: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/18 left * 1/2 chance of arriving).
turn 5: 5/36 of your army shows up (remaining 5/36 arrives automatically).

As you can see, its a trickle after turn 1.

But then the Officer of the Fleet then goes and spanks that even further, in effect shifting the arrival to turns 4+. Depending on how the demon player loads his waves, it could be good or very very bad.

Shotgun wrote:

kadun wrote:

Warmaster wrote:
If it's an objectives mission you simply hold all your troops in reserves most of them won't come in until turn 5 and if they are plague bearers it'll be good luck on your opponents part to kill them in 1-2 turns. A lot of these games will end in ties.

Its a popular misconception that most of what you have in reserve will arrive on turn 5. If my math is correct and if you've split your army points 50/50, statistically you get the following distribution:

turn 1: 1/2 of your army shows up.
turn 2: 1/12 of your army shows up (1/2 left * 1/6 chance of arriving).
turn 3: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/12 left * 1/3 chance of arriving).
turn 4: 5/36 of your army shows up (5/18 left * 1/2 chance of arriving).
turn 5: 5/36 of your army shows up (remaining 5/36 arrives automatically).

As you can see, its a trickle after turn 1.

But then the Officer of the Fleet then goes and spanks that even further, in effect shifting the arrival to turns 4+. Depending on how the demon player loads his waves, it could be good or very very bad.

Check his math again, he is including the negatives from the OotF.

you could also pad your army list buy including cheap units.
a fiend of slaanesh is only 30 points
for 60 points you can have two more units in your first drop.

You will of course get things earlier. But really half to a little less than half of your reserves will land between turns 2-3. The rest of your forces will then be evenly split between 4 and 5 with average roles. Which your numbers show.

Now if I'm playing 12 units, which is a pretty reasonable number for daemons then that means i have 3-4 uinits that will drop in turns 4-5. If it's game over on turn 5 you had 1 to 2 turns to kill those 4 units.

I still think it's an easy way for the guard player to end up with a tie going the two astropath route. I think it's much more dangerous with only one.

I guess I have had too many games come down to a daemon unit that ended up striking in on the last turn and contesting or taking something vital.

Not to derail the thread, but do two OotFs even stack?

It will take paying for two company commanders, but I don't see why not. The only problem is you still get them automatically on turn 5. Just make your first drop soul grinders or tzeentch so they can stand back and shoot. Your reserves are all your troops. Turn 5, drop in and claim every objective while your opponent has no time to push you off before the end of the game. This is extra true if you can choose to go seccond. Seems more like a hinderance than a help to me.