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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/05 05:05:57
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
Northern Virginia
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Hey I was just reading the eldar codex and taking a look at banshee masks and was wondering if the mask allows them to strike at their conferred I 10 when assaulting through cover.
page 31 "Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10 and negates any I bonus conferred by cover or grenades."
Just a random though wanted to see what the consensus was or if there is an FAQ about this. Since the new rules say that assaulting through cover does not grant a bonus to I but instead forces the models assaulting through them to strike at I 1. Any comments? Never come up before but thought I'd ask.
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"Paranoia is a very reassuring state of mind. If you think they are after you, you think you matter" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/05 05:22:54
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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RAW cover does not give an initiative bonus any more, and since the banshee masks don't specifically over-ride the initiative penalty for charging into cover, banshees will still strike at I1 when assaulting into cover.
I think most opponents will assume that they still go at I10 because the wording of their rules makes it clear that they were intended to ignore cover when assaulting.
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Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right
New to the game and can't win? Read this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/05 05:52:50
Subject: Re:Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
Northern Virginia
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I totally agree, its just something that hasn't come up before so I thought I'd ask around.
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"Paranoia is a very reassuring state of mind. If you think they are after you, you think you matter" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/05 13:00:13
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Indeed, this is a situation where an Old codex has had Wargear negated by changing rules. Oh well.
I personally have no Sympathy as my Wolves have had Plenty of wargear that doesn't work for years.
If you want to house rule it, go ahead, just don;t expect your opponent to feel its fair.
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/05 15:11:50
Subject: Re:Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
Northern Virginia
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I remember when you could have a wolfguard battle leader with mark of the wulfen, do bad they faq'ed that quick.
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"Paranoia is a very reassuring state of mind. If you think they are after you, you think you matter" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:22:19
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Bashees still attack 1st because they have I10.
"Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10"
Their base I drops to 1 (normally 6) when assaulting into cover then is raised back to 10 from the mask. Seems clear to me.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:25:15
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Yes, apart from the fact that the RULES say: Page 36 wrote:ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER [...] To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.
See, the banshee mask can make them I10 all it wants, the rules for Assaulting through cover clearly state that they still strike at I1 regardless of other Initiative modifiers. So, you actually have it wrong. Or is my Proof not good enough for you? I could reference the Rulebook FAQ (since that is relevant to this discussion) that erratas the Fighting with special weapons part to reference "bonuses and Penalties" rather than just bonuses, which implies that a reduction to Initiative is NOT a bonus, so the banshee mask does not help.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/06 06:27:55
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:30:47
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Ya but Codex> Rulebook
"Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10. Because of the Codex rule the banshees MUST have I10 during the 1st round of combat, any other value cannot be applied. Automatically Appended Next Post: The Banshee mask isn't a modifier. It sets a value that it MUST be. Cover lowers it to 1 but the mask rule says it MUST BE 10. So its 10.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/06 06:33:33
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:33:50
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Red_Lives wrote:Ya but Codex> Rulebook "Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10. Because of the Codex rule the banshees MUST have I10 during the 1st round of combat, any other value cannot be applied.
Oh ok, Codex>Rulebook. So WBB works against Sweeping advance? Ooooh right, it doesn't because the rulebook says it doesn't. Likewise, the banshee mask doesn't work because the rulebook says it doesn't work, because you strike at I1 "regardless of other Initiative modifiers." If the Banshee mask had A specific exception to this rule, then it would work. It doesn't though, so it does not work. And wrong, it is a Modifier. It's changing the I Stat, therefore it is Modifying it. Also, what's with ALL THOSE CAPS. The rulebook says it MUST BE 1 REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE. That means it is 1 REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE BANSHEE MASK SAYS!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/06 06:35:21
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:39:20
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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But the Banshee mask says it must be 10.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:42:08
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Red_Lives wrote:But the Banshee mask says it must be 10.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10.
You are not reading my Posts. It does not matter that the banshee mask says it is 10. It still works, but the fact is, the rules (in the rulebook) say that regardless of any sort of Initiative trickery, assaulting through cover ALWAYS = I1 unless you have grenades.
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:45:33
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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The Codex rule always has priority over any rulebook rule.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
According to their codex the banshees always have I10 during the 1st round of combat. The rulebook may attempt to lower it to 1 by assaulting through cover, but the banshee special rule says it must be 10. So its 10.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:46:57
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
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Red_Lives wrote:But the Banshee mask says it must be 10.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10.
Red, don't feed the Trolls...
Yes, in what Gwar has said there is a valid point, that since the rule does not specifically address it, you opponent could call you on it and make you strike at I1.
If your opponent appreciates the intention behind the ruling, acknowledges the changed of edition, and has a sense of honor in wargaming, then they will let it slide.
Yes, Gwar, you are reading to the letter, RAW, but you also can have a sense of honor in game without being a rules lawyer.
aka, the argument is pretty well settled. Let your opponent decide how they want to play this, and pray that they have the sense to acknowledge what I have written in bold above.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/06 06:48:46
DakkaDakka.com does not allow users to delete their accounts or content. We don't apologize for this. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:52:45
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Red_Lives wrote:The Codex rule always has priority over any rulebook rule.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
According to their codex the banshees always have I10 during the 1st round of combat. The rulebook may attempt to lower it to 1 by assaulting through cover, but the banshee special rule says it must be 10. So its 10.
No it doesn't. The Sweeping advance rules prove that. Please, you are trolling and failing badly at it.
@Che-Vito: I could not give two rats arses about "The Honour of Wargaming" or whatever you are on about. It is GW's fault this happened. Not mine. Why should I care? For me, the true enjoyment lies in actually playing by the rules and not making up stuff whenever something doesn't go your way.
As for letting your opponent decide how to play this... No, just no. We let the RULES decide how to play this, not some whiner who wants to make up stuff because GW fail to errata his codexs
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 06:55:58
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Gwar! wrote:Red_Lives wrote:The Codex rule always has priority over any rulebook rule.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
According to their codex the banshees always have I10 during the 1st round of combat. The rulebook may attempt to lower it to 1 by assaulting through cover, but the banshee special rule says it must be 10. So its 10.
No it doesn't. The Sweeping advance rules prove that. Please, you are trolling and failing badly at it.
@Che-Vito: I could not give two rats arses about "The Honour of Wargaming" or whatever you are on about. It is GW's fault this happened. Not mine. Why should I care? For me, the true enjoyment lies in actually playing by the rules and not making up stuff whenever something doesn't go your way.
As for letting your opponent decide how to play this... No, just no. We let the RULES decide how to play this, not some whiner who wants to make up stuff because GW fail to errata his codexs
wait you honnestly believe that codex special rules for units/wargear/etc. do not override any rule in the main rulebook?
Really?
...REALLY?
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 07:00:31
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Red_Lives wrote:Gwar! wrote:Red_Lives wrote:The Codex rule always has priority over any rulebook rule.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
According to their codex the banshees always have I10 during the 1st round of combat. The rulebook may attempt to lower it to 1 by assaulting through cover, but the banshee special rule says it must be 10. So its 10.
No it doesn't. The Sweeping advance rules prove that. Please, you are trolling and failing badly at it.
@Che-Vito: I could not give two rats arses about "The Honour of Wargaming" or whatever you are on about. It is GW's fault this happened. Not mine. Why should I care? For me, the true enjoyment lies in actually playing by the rules and not making up stuff whenever something doesn't go your way.
As for letting your opponent decide how to play this... No, just no. We let the RULES decide how to play this, not some whiner who wants to make up stuff because GW fail to errata his codexs
wait you honnestly believe that codex special rules for units/wargear/etc. do not override any rule in the main rulebook?
Really?
...REALLY?
-sigh- You don't read do you. I am saying that a rule that says it isn't affected by other effects is not affected by a codex rule unless it specifically allows it. As I said, the Sweeping Advance Rules show that Rulebook Rules can trump Codex ones, and the Assaulting Through Cover is one such rule.
Tell me, What does "REGARDLESS OF OTHER MODIFIERS" mean to you?
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 07:03:52
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Other rule book effects like Furious charge. Or any codex ability that adds to initiative.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
Clearly doesn't add to initiative. It sets a value that it must be.
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 07:05:03
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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So modifying the Stat to make it 10 isn't modifying it? Really? REEEEEEALY?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/06 07:05:36
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 07:05:42
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
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Red_Lives wrote:Gwar! wrote:Red_Lives wrote:The Codex rule always has priority over any rulebook rule.
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
According to their codex the banshees always have I10 during the 1st round of combat. The rulebook may attempt to lower it to 1 by assaulting through cover, but the banshee special rule says it must be 10. So its 10.
No it doesn't. The Sweeping advance rules prove that. Please, you are trolling and failing badly at it.
@Che-Vito: I could not give two rats arses about "The Honour of Wargaming" or whatever you are on about. It is GW's fault this happened. Not mine. Why should I care? For me, the true enjoyment lies in actually playing by the rules and not making up stuff whenever something doesn't go your way.
As for letting your opponent decide how to play this... No, just no. We let the RULES decide how to play this, not some whiner who wants to make up stuff because GW fail to errata his codexs
wait you honnestly believe that codex special rules for units/wargear/etc. do not override any rule in the main rulebook?
Really?
...REALLY?
Well, his point is valid...since GW have not specifically addressed this due to Edition changes...
I would hope that he/other players can have understanding with that, and let it slide.
Call it an attack on character, I call it simply this, *feedback on ones input to DakkaDakka*:
I wouldn't play with Gwar in RL, simply because of the intense rules lawyering that goes on. Period. I am open to new takes on rules, but also have an understanding of when enough is enough. Playing by the rules is wonderful, and in this case stretching them *because it just makes sense* for the new Edition is fine by me. Playing without "the honour of wargaming", is playing with the "tournament player" mindset, more bent on winning then playing.
I will not play with any player who is so bent on winning that they lose sight of the fact that the game is by opponents consent only, and I doubt many Eldar players will consent to play a game with someone who can't stretch their necks a bit.
*Che-Vito is done*
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 07:11:06
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I 10
It must be I10 according to the banshee rule. Anything else is cheating!
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"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
-Joseph Stalin
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:04:27
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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Banshees strike at I10 on the first round of an assault, regardless of the main rulebook. The more specific rule (of the codex) overrides the more general rule (of the main rulebook).
As usual it could have been written better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:06:55
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Sazzlefrats wrote:Banshees strike at I10 on the first round of an assault, regardless of the main rulebook. The more specific rule (of the codex) overrides the more general rule (of the main rulebook). As usual it could have been written better.
As I have shown, this is incorrect. Sweeping Advance doesn't let WBB be taken, because it says that unless the rule mentions SA, it doesn't work. Same here, the rule says they are I1 Regardless of other modifiers. That has to include codex ones otherwise it would not say Other modifiers, it would say Other rulebook modifiers. If the banshee rules ignored penalties, then you would be golden. However, it does not, so they suffer the I1 Penalty. @Che-Vito: Don't want to play with me? No problem, there's plenty more who play by the rules to play with.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/06 08:08:23
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:08:52
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot
Chicago
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RaI here seems absolutely crystal clear to me.
The wording of the Banshee rule says they strike at I10 and specifically mentions that they do this regardless of cover. In a case where RaW is this foggy, it seems ok to fall back on RaI, especially when you can cite text to support it.
It's not 100%, but I'd say let the banshees go first.
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Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.  |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:16:36
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
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Mad Rabbit wrote:RaI here seems absolutely crystal clear to me.
The wording of the Banshee rule says they strike at I10 and specifically mentions that they do this regardless of cover. In a case where RaW is this foggy, it seems ok to fall back on RaI, especially when you can cite text to support it.
It's not 100%, but I'd say let the banshees go first.
At the risk of not making it into his sig...Gwar is right about RAW, but quite wrong in the spirit with which the game is approached, and RAI. The latter makes others (beyond myself) not want to play with you.
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DakkaDakka.com does not allow users to delete their accounts or content. We don't apologize for this. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:17:27
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Mod:
There has been a complaint about this thread. I would like to remind everyone that although rules issues are often contentious, your arguments should be conducted with politeness.
Thank you for your cooperation with Dakka posting guidelines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:24:17
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Confessor Of Sins
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In 4th edition the mask worked wonderfully. You got I10 and the enemy involved lost their BONUS which was I10 for being in cover when assaulted.
In 5th it doesn't work - the effects of charging into cover has changed with the edition and suddenly the mask is useless there. You have I10 but no immunity to PENALTIES.
Until it is put in the Eldar FAQ as errata you're relying on opponents being gentlemen. Depending on how ancient their own codex is you might negotiate some deal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:30:24
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Mad Rabbit wrote:RaI here seems absolutely crystal clear to me.
The wording of the Banshee rule says they strike at I10 and specifically mentions that they do this regardless of cover. In a case where RaW is this foggy, it seems ok to fall back on RaI, especially when you can cite text to support it.
It's not 100%, but I'd say let the banshees go first.
Actually, the RAW is not foggy at all. Sure, codex over-rides rulebook, but in order for a codex rule to over-ride a rulebook rule, it has to do so specifically.
However, the RAI isn't really foggy either.
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Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right
New to the game and can't win? Read this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:32:16
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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And, Willydstyle, if I may ask your ever so learn'd opinion, do, pray tell, explain what doth happen should RaW and RaI Conflict good sir?
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:34:50
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
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Gwar! wrote:And, Willydstyle, if I may ask your ever so learn'd opinion, do, pray tell, explain what doth happen should RaW and RaI Conflict good sir? 
1) wait for FAQ
2) wait for Errata
3) discuss with opponent on-game-by-game basis
4) let cool for 5 minutes before eating
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/06/06 08:40:25
Subject: Banshee's and assaulting through cover.
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Che-Vito wrote:Gwar! wrote:And, Willydstyle, if I may ask your ever so learn'd opinion, do, pray tell, explain what doth happen should RaW and RaI Conflict good sir?  1) wait for FAQ 2) wait for Errata 3) discuss with opponent on-game-by-game basis 4) let cool for 5 minutes before eating
Our Survey Says: You play by the Rules. This really is silly, all this horribleness against me. You'd think I was a bad person or something. (Or actually was this anal in real life. My God-Emperor)
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/06 08:41:53
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