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Storm Troopers are very cool units, but it is generally agreed that in the new IG Codex they are not worth their points (they are the same as basic SM, with a few special abilities, a low AP weapon, and accross the board much worse stats than a SM).

My proposal is to give Storm Troopers the following two abilities without changing anything else (including their points cost):

1) Grant them the "Tank Hunter" USR --- This would make them some of the best AV troops in the game, with in essence S9 Meltaguns, S8 Plasmaguns, and S7 Krak grenades when targetting vehicles. Combined with their different deployment options (especially Aerial Assault) and Orders like BRING IT DOWN, this would help make them worth their point cost.

2) Give them the "Close Assault Tactics" special rule --- This rule would allow Storm Troopers to re-roll to wound with ANY shooting attacks they make at a distance of 6" or less. Not only is this fluffy (i.e. makes them experts at taking down high value enemy infantry), but would mitigate the low strength of their Hotshot Lasguns/Pistols. This would of course be balanced by how close they have to get to shoot, making them highly vulnerable to return fire and/or counter-charges the next turn... i.e. you have to weigh if the gain is worth the risk.

I think these two changes would bring STs in line with their point cost, would make them even more fluffy in terms of what their role is in the Imperial Guard, and would make them seen in a lot more 40k combat than they would be otherwise.

STs have great tactical flexibility and are really good at getting to where you need them to be. The only issue is that there aren't too many places you actually want them to be. They are a very close ranged unit, but are expensive and fragile. Their damage output is fine, its just that for a 16 point unit they can't take a hit. AP 3 is nice and all, but it only does so much. Sure they ignore marine saves, but they cost just as much as one and suffer just as badly from the marines return fire. Even a small tank hunter squad with meltas runs you over 100 points which is just as much as chaos pays for 3 deep-striking combimelta terminators. STs really could use a 3+ save, but that's unfluffy and just un-Guard-like in general. They really just need a points reduction. 16 points is just way too much for a 1W T3 model and a 4+ Sv. Extra specials rules won't change that too much.

What if the ST's hot-shot las is a las rifle and can therefore use FRFSRF rule? Would that start to work a little better?

I think they are good enough already.
It'n not THAT difficult to wound with S3.

the FRRSRF rule is ment for badly trained cannon fodder troops. so that you get the best out of a 10 guns. it would not be the same used by an elit strike force.

i recon a group of three rules that you can chose one out of the three to add to the exicting rules.

1. tank hunter. this is a common role for STs

2. man hunter. somthing along thelines of an extra ability to take out special characters and or mid sized beasts

3. objective holder. give them someway to survie longer under fire. improved cover saves or high toughnes.

What about giving them Feel No Pain to show that they have been trained to resist even the highest levels of pain, as they often work in zones where normal medical treatment is not available. You could also say that their carapace armour has built in painkiller injectors.

this relay all depends on how you look to chnge their rules.

if you want their rules to match their cost we could give them so many special rules that you cant posible use a fraction of them.

or

you could jsut lower the cost to suit the exicting rules.

as an IG player if i want high cost units i just add a few SMs. so as a player id prob just lower their cost. but for sheer koolnes you cant beat a bunch of rules that scare your oponet witless as they cant pridict what that unit is going to do.

ID~
Switching the Stormtrooper rifle in name from a Hellgun to a Hot-shot Lasrifle makes little sense if they didn't want to use FRFSRF. It would only create confusion, given that they authored a new rule for lasrifle troops to use. (Of course, this is GW, so sense is often lacking).

Well if you keep them at 16 points, at least make them worth it. Add the following:

-Stubborn
-Meltabombs instead of krak grenades
-Up to 3 democharges at 20 pts each


-Upgradable special Ops, pay +20 pts for an enhanced version of special ops, can only take max 1 of each type:

Reconnaisance- Spectre forces: Squad counts as having Defensive grenades and stealth

Airborne Assault- Stimm-boosted jump: Squad gets FnP the turn it deepstrikes

Behind enemy lines- Come in on the opponent's table edge

Obviously the last one is the most powerful, but honestly I think for the price and function Storm Troopers really need something like this.

Hmmm, I think you underestimate the scariness of having basic AP3 weapons.

But yes, some of those suggestions were good.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, I think you underestimate the scariness of having basic AP3 weapons.

But yes, some of those suggestions were good.

Yeah, they are just as scary as Tau vespid, ie not scary at all. Really it is really easy to fix stormies. 12 points a pop should do it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, I think you underestimate the scariness of having basic AP3 weapons.

But yes, some of those suggestions were good.

In 4th ed. I'd agree. But in 5th, you'd hit a marine unit on 3+, wound on 5+ and force a marine to take a 4+ cover save (meaning you'll need 9 shots to bring one marine down) then next round the marine unit would hit you on 3+, wound you on 3+ and you'd take a 4+ armor save (meaning the SM unit would need 4.5 shots to bring down a storm trooper). I will admit though, that's not figuring out other little subtleties like rapid fire and charging though.

In 4th ed. I'd agree. But in 5th, you'd hit a marine unit on 3+, wound on 5+ and force a marine to take a 4+ cover save (meaning you'll need 9 shots to bring one marine down) then next round the marine unit would hit you on 3+, wound you on 3+ and you'd take a 4+ armor save (meaning the SM unit would need 4.5 shots to bring down a storm trooper). I will admit though, that's not figuring out other little subtleties like rapid fire and charging though.

How do the Spahz Mahrinz get that 4+ unless they are in cover?
It is actually harder than you think to get a 10-man unit a cover save. They need to be 50% obscured (or in/behind area terrain)
Any way sisters of battle are 11pts each with strength 4 weapons. So for 2 more points they're now ap3?

EVERYBODY IN 5TH EDITION ALWAYS HAS COVER ALL THE TIME SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!1

You must play on different boards then I do Orkeosaurus.

If you follow 5th ed guideline it advises that only 25% o the board be covered in terrain.
Personally, I used to chuck as much stuff on it as humanly possible!

I think the direction they should have went with the stormtroopers should have been more unique like that of the "Storm the Objective" ability from the apoc valkyrie - storm trooper formation. Possibly instead of the ap3 which was more suited to MEQ killing, they could have made a unique unit out of them. As is their just thousand sons lite in my eyes

Just use Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Or carapace Veterans.

Seriously, there's no need to fight to get your opponents to accept a bunch of new special rules when IG already have access to two significantly cheaper BS 4 Troops choices with multiple special weapons and a 4+ save.

Give them the ability to re-roll failed to-wound rolls.

Hmm. S3, re-roll wounds, or S4, re-roll wounds? Also, rapid fire, 24"?

Assualt 2? Assualt? (Why would you want to assualt?!?)

It's the ability to move-and-shoot that people want. A hellgun shouldn't require steady aiming, it's an automatic lasgun.

What about the following special rule/mission option:

"Keep Moving!": Storm Troopers are well trained in maintaining fire disipline even while advancing or clearing buildings. Storm Troopers may both fire their weapons and take a run move in the same shooting phase.

Eh, it would be a first in the game. Lots of arguments would arrive. How about instead of assualting they can move an extra D6, like jump infantry?

I'm with Foil on this one. At 12 points per model, you have a unit that can dish out and take punishment that is appropriate for its cost. The flexibility afforded to the squad by Deep Strike and the Special Operations rules are great, but they are much to frail to last long enough once on the ground to actually do any damage.

In fact, I'd like to see the Hellgun take on a poor man's rending type of rule (similar to the Cyclic Ion Blaster in the Tau Codex), where any roll of a 6 to wound would be resolved at AP1. This would still make them a threat against Sv2+ units without modifying their role immensely.

CK

Yeah, I would get rid of AP3 and give them the equivelent of a Rail Rifle, Str 5 AP5? or something rending.

Sh13ld wrote:Storm Troopers are very cool units, but it is generally agreed that in the new IG Codex they are not worth their points (they are the same as basic SM, with a few special abilities, a low AP weapon, and accross the board much worse stats than a SM).

My proposal is to give Storm Troopers the following two abilities without changing anything else (including their points cost):

1) Grant them the "Tank Hunter" USR --- This would make them some of the best AV troops in the game, with in essence S9 Meltaguns, S8 Plasmaguns, and S7 Krak grenades when targetting vehicles. Combined with their different deployment options (especially Aerial Assault) and Orders like BRING IT DOWN, this would help make them worth their point cost.

2) Give them the "Close Assault Tactics" special rule --- This rule would allow Storm Troopers to re-roll to wound with ANY shooting attacks they make at a distance of 6" or less. Not only is this fluffy (i.e. makes them experts at taking down high value enemy infantry), but would mitigate the low strength of their Hotshot Lasguns/Pistols. This would of course be balanced by how close they have to get to shoot, making them highly vulnerable to return fire and/or counter-charges the next turn... i.e. you have to weigh if the gain is worth the risk.

I think these two changes would bring STs in line with their point cost, would make them even more fluffy in terms of what their role is in the Imperial Guard, and would make them seen in a lot more 40k combat than they would be otherwise.

Yeah but stormtroopers are not space marines and rapid fire into a squad of SM and you got trouble, sux for me though I play DH i.e there stormtroopers suck..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ogiwan wrote:Hmm. S3, re-roll wounds, or S4, re-roll wounds? Also, rapid fire, 24"?

18" sux bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm, I think you underestimate the scariness of having basic AP3 weapons.

But yes, some of those suggestions were good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rashad wrote:What if the ST's hot-shot las is a las rifle and can therefore use FRFSRF rule? Would that start to work a little better?

That would be awesome, that plus 24" range..

Well, I use witch hunter storm troopers. Eh, ya have to deal with it?

I'm pretty sure that they changed helgun to hotshot lasgun specifically because the WH HD storm troopers are Troop choices and only 10 points. And since I believe the WH stormtroopers don't have a helgun entry you'd use the IG book for reference. Thereby granting way to much low AP fire to any imperium army.